kizaru vs tien

Originally posted by Q99
The "Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume," a sourcebook released by Shueisha a few years back.

It does strike me as a bit low due to the muscles, but not that far off. He should be well below 200.

Originally posted by Q99
That's the thing- it takes many times the power to handle moderately more weight.

450g still isn't that much weight. And that's over the entire body, his limbs are far far lighter than his total weight increase.

Furthermore, while his arms may not have been bearing the entirety of that weight, his legs were(when he was training on the ground, of course.) And again: that was back when his base power was only 4,000,000. Buu-saga Goku's base PL would have been many, many times greater.

Logic dictates that his inability to lift 40 tons at base(10 tons with each extremity) is laughably ridiculous.

Originally posted by Q99
When they were in the same form they were fairly equal, Goku just had higher forms.

So yeah, Vegeta was treated as fodder(relative to Goku) after the Saiyan saga.

Or it is a cartoon with an art style that isn't really that realistic and as such the official weight figures seem retarded.

160-180lbs seems a bit more logical. Does it state the timeframe in which he weighed that much? He would have weighed less in the Saiyan saga than he did in the Cell saga, for instance.

Good point, no it does not.

It is a lot of weight...

I wouldn't consider it that much in this context.

Furthermore, while his arms may not have been bearing the entirety of that weight, his legs were(when he was training on the ground, of course.) And again: that was back when his base power was only 4,000,000. Buu-saga Goku's base PL would have been many, many times greater.

90,000, 100gs is movable. 4,000,000, 450 for a much lighter person is moveable.

Legs are much stronger than arms, and importantly designed for supporting weights directly via bone. And arms weigh about ~5% of the body.

30 tons for a 200lbs weight on Vegeta- a very high-end estimate- of which maybe 5%, or in other words he was going around with maybe 1.5 tons per arm.

Go an order of magnitude past that and it'd be only 15 tons- still significantly less than the weights Goku put on.

Originally posted by Q99
30 tons for a 200lbs weight on Vegeta- a very high-end estimate- of which maybe 5%, or in other words he was going around with maybe 1.5 tons per arm.

Go an order of magnitude past that and it'd be only 15 tons- still significantly less than the weights Goku put on.

We know Goku had one weight on each extremity, each weighing 10 tons a piece(40 tons total), and he was apparently unable to lift any of these weights as a base-level Saiyan. We know an average human arm accounts for about 5% of total body weight. Assuming Goku weighs in at 200lbs, that means each of his arms weigh about 10lbs.

Even if we assume Vegeta also weighed 200lbs at the end of the Frieza saga, that means each of his arms would've weighed about 2.2 tons under 450G(10*450/2,000=2.25 tons). And with a PL of 4,000,000 he had no problem whatsoever moving around at high-level speeds in that environment. This means 450G wasn't remotely close to his max weight limit, but for the purposes of this discussion I suppose we are assuming that lifting 2.2 tons with each arm in normal gravity was his max.

Anyway, based on the above calculations, Goku would have to be about 4.6x more powerful than Vegeta in order to move freely with 10 tons of weight on each arm(2.2*4.6=10.1 tons.) This equates to a PL of 18,400,000(4,000,000*4.6=18,400,000.) Even if we only assume that FPSSJ Goku possessed a PL of 1 billion during the Cell Games(a vast underestimation, given that the guide I reference has him at 3 billion), then that still puts the PL of his base form at 20,000,000(1 billion/50=20,000,000.) Remember, it only needs to be 18.4 million. However, if we use the actual PL listed for him of 3 billion as a FPSSJ, then that puts Goku's base PL at 60,000,000(3 billion/50=60,000,000), which means that during the Cell Games his base power was 15x greater than Vegeta's was during the Frieza saga.

So yeah, as of the Cell Games base-level Goku should have logically been able to move around with 33 ton weights on each arm without much effort(15*2.2=33 tons)--- but even if we low-ball his PL tremendously, and reduce it by 2/3, a meager 10 tons on each arm would have STILL been an entirely inconsequential amount of weight for him during the Cell Games... Nevermind the Buu saga, when he was much, much more powerful. Point: Goku failing to lift 10 tons with one arm contradicts established facts/logic/common sense.

Heh, this made me start to think...

During GT, Goku was able to beat both Frieza and Cell as a base-level Saiyan. Actually the word "beat" doesn't give Goku enough credit--- he toyed with them like they were weak feebs. For Goku to toy with Cell, it means that his base PL must have been greater than 5 billion(assuming Cell possessed the same 'SSJ2-esque' power that he wielded during the Cell Games, of course.) I suppose that'd make sense given that Rildo was "more powerful than Majin Buu" and Goku was stalemating him as a base-level Saiyan.

Furthermore, after transforming into a SSJ1 in front of Rildo, he [Rildo] stated that Goku's power had increased "a hundred fold"(both of these statements were made in GT ep. 19.) So if Goku's PL was around 5 billion as a base Saiyan, that'd put his power as a SSJ1 at roughly 500 billion?! And if his PL doubled upon transforming like it did in Z, then that puts him at the 1 trillion mark as a SSJ2, and 4 trillion as a SSJ3?! Damn, imagine the PL of a SSJ4!

Also keep in mind that those figures are on the low-end! 😱

Originally posted by Galan007
Furthermore, after transforming into a SSJ1 in front of Rildo, he [Rildo] stated that Goku's power had increased "a hundred fold"(both of these statements were made in GT ep. 19.)

Originally posted by Kento
How does ssj1 increase him 100x when it's only a 50x increase. 😛 This is why GT isn't usable.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was a 50x increase in Z. Evidently the multipliers in GT were significantly greater. That's why the figures I referenced would be on the low-end, even though they're still massive.

I wonder if ssj4 Gokou's lifting of the city can be calculated, and then backtracked to find a better base level strength.

Originally posted by Kento
😆 So what would ssj2 be 4x, then 8x for ssj3? It makes no sense why the power up would change though, it's GT so I guess that's enough of a explanation.

I wonder if ssj4 Gokou's lifting of the city can be calculated, and then backtracked to find a better base level strength.

When did he lift a city? I don't remember off-hand. Either way, I think it'd be nearly impossible to accurately quantify that type of feat. /shrug

Nvm, just watched it (GT ep. 52.) It's really hard to see exactly how much he was lifting. I got the impression that he lifted a very large portion of the city, but admittedly it's nigh-impossible to tell for sure. He may have just lifted a tiny section.

But even if he only lifted a small part of the city, it would still equate to a very large amount of weight given the thickness of the earth he moved as well as the structures on top of it:

(He lifted the left half.)

did anyone say "kizaru shoots tien in the brain" yet?

if not, that

Tien's been dodging blasts of similar or greater speed since before Kizaru was invented.

Tien simply slaps Kizaru's blasts away. Or tanks 'em. Either way.

Originally posted by Galan007

So yeah, as of the Cell Games base-level Goku should have logically been able to move around with 33 ton weights on each arm without much effort(15*2.2=33 tons)--- but even if we low-ball his PL tremendously, and reduce it by 2/3, a meager 10 tons on each arm would have STILL been an entirely inconsequential amount of weight for him during the Cell Games... Nevermind the Buu saga, when he was much, much more powerful. Point: Goku failing to lift 10 tons with one arm contradicts established facts/logic/common sense.

Hm, well-reasoned. Seems right to me.

I will add that as it was in the otherworld, it could be like King Kai's planet and it's 10x gravity, meaning it was could actually be 100 tons or more.

Kento

So what would ssj2 be 4x, then 8x for ssj3? It makes no sense why the power up would change though, it's GT so I guess that's enough of a explanation.

According to the Deathbattle guys (who are pretty well-researched), SSJ2 is power x2 (so twice Full Power Super Saiyan), SSJ3 is x4 that, and finally SSJ4 is x10 SSJ3. Added all together, 4,000x his base power.

What the **** ever happened to using feats?

Tien wins.

Being the greatest fighter in DBZ history.

So phuck the rest of you.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What the **** ever happened to using feats?

They did. They used a lot of feats for Superman, and nothing but numbers for Goku.

I wasn't talking about Deathbattles, I am talking about in general. The powerscaling goofiness going on concerning DBZ around here lately.

And in that battle, if you want to go via a feat by feat comparison, Superman doesn't just win, it is no contest, lol. His strength, speed, and durability are off the charts.

Originally posted by Q99
According to the Deathbattle guys (who are pretty well-researched), SSJ2 is power x2 (so twice Full Power Super Saiyan), SSJ3 is x4 that, and finally SSJ4 is x10 SSJ3. Added all together, 4,000x his base power.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, well-reasoned. Seems right to me.

I will add that as it was in the otherworld, it could be like King Kai's planet and it's 10x gravity, meaning it was could actually be 100 tons or more.

Very true. If King Kai's planet possessed increased gravity, it makes sense that the training ground he selected for Goku in otherworld(was that Grand Kai's planet?) might have increased gravity as well.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What the **** ever happened to using feats?

-Goku effortlessly owned Cell and Frieza as a base-level Saiyan. That logically puts the PL of his base form in the billionS by default.

-Base-level Goku stalemated Rildo, who he stated was more powerful than Majin Buu. There is no reason to doubt the validity of Goku's statement, given that he can a.) very accurately sense a being's ki, and b.) has fought Majin Buu in the past. Why would he randomly tell Pan how powerful Rildo was if it weren't true?

-After Goku transformed into a SSJ, Rildo(who can also, very accurately, read a being's ki) stated that his power had increased "a hundred fold"(100x.) Given that SSJ Goku became much more powerful than base Rildo, more powerful than 2nd form Rildo, and nearly on par with 3rd form Rildo, I don't see any reason to question Rildo's power reading/assessment.

Having said that, since the SSJ1 multiplier doubled in GT (SSJ1 only gave Saiyans a 50x increase in Z), then it stands to reason that the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 may have doubled as well. So instead of a 2x increase for a SSJ2, it may have been a 4x increase--- instead of a 4x increase for a SSJ3, it may have been an 8x increase.

If that is in fact the case, it'd mean that as a SSJ3 Goku would be roughly 3,200x more powerful than Majin Buu, since we know he was no less than equal to Buu as a base-level Saiyan. However, even if the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multipliers were still the same as they were in Z, then SSJ3 Goku would still be about 800x more powerful than Majin Buu.... And that's not even factoring in a SSJ4, which most DB aficionados believe is 10x more powerful than a SSJ3. Insane.

It depends on WHICH Buu Gokou is talking about how powerful that makes him. Cause telling Pan he is probably referring to Fat Buu who is the weakest Buu and got even weaker iirc when he became pure good.

Also people like to doubt Gokou saying Dabura is as strong as Cell for some reason.