Originally posted by CountDooku22
I can tell you right now that none of the mooks that Luke fought in the Galactic Civil War, can even compare to the dangers Offee faced during the Clone Wars.One of the Destroyer Droids she tore apart, alone, could obliterate the comparatively-inexperienced Luke.
(Luke got shot by a mook in Return of the Jedi - and if that had been a volley from a Destroyer Droid - he would have been killed.)The same types of droids that Offee learned to kill casually.
-Barriss Offee was raised from nigh-infancy, to wield a lightsaber, and had an embellished tutorship in the art of fencing, which she grew to excel in, and which enabled her to survive all the dangers of the Clone Wars.
Luke had only had two, actually three, fights that even mattered. And those were with Vader.
You seem to be getting confused, its not about the droids or blaster wielding opponents either of them can take down, its a lightsaber duel! And when we are talking about who would win in a LIGHTSABER DUEL, it would obviously be Luke because he has more experience fighting a LIGHTSABER DUEL. When Barriss has virtually no experience with lightsaber dueling. And if Vader was holding back, he was holding back in his offensive attacks, I mean, why would he consciously hold back his defense, its not like he wanted to die! So that means Luke broke through his defense, which is far superior to Barriss's Soresu due to experience in LIGHTSABER DUELING and just overall skill.
The first time Luke fought Vader, the spirit of Obi-wan Kenobi possessed Luke's body and fought for him; otherwise Luke would have died. ([b]Splinter of the Mind's Eye
)The second time, Vader held back on Luke, and Vader still kicked Luke's ass.
The third time, Vader had already begun to realize his feelings of love for Luke as his son, and this affected him:
Darth Vader: A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.
The Emperor: Yes, I know.
Darth Vader: My son is with them.
The Emperor: Are you sure?
Darth Vader: I have.. felt him, my master.
The Emperor: Strange that I have not.
- I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader?
Darth Vader: ..They are clear, my master.Facing inner turmoil and indecision, Vader held back on his son, and eventually Luke was able to overcome him.
This was confirmed later in the novel, The Courtship of Princess Leia:
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.
Who had Luke been kidding?....... - P.237This is, of course, obvious, as we know later from Vader's battles with Galen Marek, that if Vader had fought Luke, without holding back, as he did with Galen, Luke would not have stood a chance. [/B]
Well, we aren't talking about what droids they can defeat, we are talking about in a LIGHTSABER DUEL, who would win, and because of Luke's experience with lightsaber dueling he would obviously win. Also if Vader was holding back it would've been in his offensive attacks, not defensive. So if Vader wasn't holding back his defensive capabilities, that means Luke successfully broke through his defense, which is far stronger than Barriss's defense, due to experience and overall skill.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Well, we aren't talking about what droids they can defeat, we are talking about in a LIGHTSABER DUEL, who would win, and because of Luke's experience with lightsaber dueling he would obviously win.
If Luke can't even block a single blaster bolt, fired by a mook, - then he'll have trouble blocking a cut from a classically-trained Jedi.
As said before, Luke had 3 significant fights - in the first fight,
1. Kenobi possessed him and fought for him, otherwise he would have been killed
In the second fight,
2. Vader held back on him, and still kicked Luke's ass.
In the third fight,
3. Vader was conflicted over his feelings of love for Luke, and held himself back from going all-out on him - leading to his eventual defeat.
- Barriss, on the other hand, has sparred with other Jedi, and has more knowledge and skill in fencing than Luke does at this point.
She survived the horrors of the Clone Wars, which an inexperienced Luke could not.
She doesn't stomp Luke, but she wins.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Also if Vader was holding back it would've been in his offensive attacks, not defensive. So if Vader wasn't holding back his defensive capabilities,
Vader was holding back, Period. He was mentally conflicted over having to fight Luke, so much so that Luke even noticed it and pointed it out to him.
Vader has blocked attacks from people like Starkiller, who would rip Luke apart, and while Luke was attacking him later on - Vader couldn't bring himself to fight all-out, one way or the other.
That's why slow, clumsy Luke was able to get through Vader's defenses eventually.
- He could have never done that to the Vader that Galen fought.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
that means Luke successfully broke through his defense, which is far stronger than Barriss's defense, due to experience and overall skill.
Slow, clumsy Luke broke through Vader's defense, because Vader allowed it to happen.
He couldn't bring himself to destroy his son, and go all-out on him; he gimped himself.
In terms of Luke versus Barriss - Barriss would be moving too fast for Luke's saber to even connect with hers most of the time.
Generally, she's shown herself to be much faster with a lightsaber than him - and it wouldn't be a fight with saber-locking - so much as it would be Barriss blitzing him and cutting him down, before he could even do anything.
So she kills him.
There is no way Barriss's is that much faster than Luke, and Luke, by ROTJ is not clumsy by any means, so I don't know were you got that from...
But I DO agree Barriss is faster, even though in the Clone Wars TV show she looks quite stiff, but I think that's due to the animation back then.
Also, there's no way she couldld blitz him at anything, and I doubt he could blitz her at anything either...
I say ROTJ Luke beats her 5.3 - 10 IMO
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
There is no way Barriss's is that much faster than Luke,
She's significantly faster, especially taking all of her showings into account.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
and Luke, by ROTJ is not clumsy by any means, so I don't know were you got that from...
You ever seen a little movie called Return of the Jedi? 🙄 😛
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
But I DO agree Barriss is faster, even though in the Clone Wars TV show she looks quite stiff, but I think that's due to the animation back then.
She's in much more than just that.
In some of the comic-stills she possesses speed visibly-faster than what we see from RotJ Luke, and in the 03' Clone Wars miniseries, she's shown to be much faster than Luke.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Also, there's no way she couldld blitz him at anything, and I doubt he could blitz her at anything either...
I say ROTJ Luke beats her 5.3 - 10 IMO
Luke could never beat her.
He beat Vader due to Obi-wan's intervention, and then Vader holding back on him - otherwise, he would have been killed any of those times.
Barriss is faster, even to your understanding; she's more skilled, more experienced and she would kill him 10/10, with high-difficulty for her, each time.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Nope, your either Overestimating Barriss or Underestimating Luke, she wouldn't win 10/10 I guarantee you.
You have to use logic.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
But, anyways, I have seen ROTJ, and can you tell me where he is clumsy?
There's the battle at the Pit of Carkoon, where Luke gets shot by a mook, and fights off other mooks in ways that makes Zett Jukassa look like Yoda.
And of course, when he battles Vader, especially when he throws his tantrum, he's swinging his lightsaber around, like a blinded-folded six-year attacking a piñata.
Especially when compared to the classically-trained Jedi of earlier eras - he is very clumsy.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
P.S.
I am beginning to agree with you I just can't see her winning 10/10 times, maybe 6...
Keep thinking about it - you'll get it. 😉
Common sense always wins through in the end, if you let it.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Also, I just want to point out that I think TFU game stresses what Vader can to because Vader wasn't holding back in ANH against Obi-Wan and Vader looked very unimpressive,
Vader and old Ben were reserving themselves against each other - in an all-out fight, Vader would have eventually beaten Kenobi one way or another.
It's also important to note that Vader's fight with Galen meant different things for Vader.
He hadn't suffered a previous defeat to his opponent, and he wanted to go all-out to kill his opponent, instead of reserving himself or savoring the moment.
But saber-wise, Obi-wan Kenobi is definitely on par with Galen - and both are beyond RotJ Luke.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
if if Vader was really trying against Luke I think Luke would've won saber wise.
No, Vader would have killed him, if he had gone all-out.
- and Barris Offee kills Luke every time - but with a lot more difficulty.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
So we just gonna let Maul being placed below Drallig pass?
Yeah that's not right considering how Maul > Anoon Bondara.
As for the ROTJ Luke debate:
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's just an inconsistency between the PT and OT.Luke was originally supposed to be a match for Vader in ROTJ. Then we see the prequels and we're like, that's not possible. He's not had enough training.
But the ROTJ novel makes it clear Luke was legitimately beating Vader.
But then Lucas confirms in the ROTJ audio commentary that Luke's training is only half complete and that he's not yet fully equipped to take on Vader.
But the dialogue in ROTJ(which hasn't changed in any of the latest format's) from Yoda, Obi-Wan and even Vader suggest he is fully trained and is ready to kill Vader.
So I'm not thinking about it anymore. It just gives me a headache.
And btw CountDooku22, we only know that Vader held back on his TK against Luke. There's no evidence he held back in Sabers.
Even if he did, why did he have to let Luke chop his arm off? Does holding back mean he can't defend himself?
Just food for thought. There's no right answer here as I've said it's just a huge inconsistency between the OT and PT.
@ CountDooku22
ANH Obi-Wan wouldn't beat ROTJ Luke in sabers....
Also the reason Luke was swinging his saber around at Vader after he said NEVER!!! Is because he was beyond enraged, he's not going to do fancy and stupid-ass acrobatics when he is pissed off, unlike the prequel trilogy how they over coreograph the fights to be beyond unrealistic. And the only reason why Luke was shot by the "mook" is because he wasn't looking....
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
@ CountDooku22
ANH Obi-Wan wouldn't beat ROTJ Luke in sabers....
Also the reason Luke was swinging his saber around at Vader after he said NEVER!!! Is because he was beyond enraged, he's not going to do fancy and stupid-ass acrobatics when he is pissed off, unlike the prequel trilogy how they over coreograph the fights to be beyond unrealistic. And the only reason why Luke was shot by the "mook" is because he wasn't looking....
This is all true 🙂
Originally posted by CountDooku22Luke could never beat her.
He beat Vader due to Obi-wan's intervention, and then Vader holding back on him - otherwise, he would have been killed any of those times.
Barriss is faster, even to your understanding; she's more skilled, more experienced and she would kill him 10/10, with high-difficulty for her, each time.
🙄 🙄 😱 😆
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah that's not right considering how Maul > Anoon Bondara.
That depends on whether Bondara could kill Grievous or not.
If he could, then Maul is above Grievous.
If not, then Maul indeed belongs below Grievous.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the ROTJ Luke debate:
And btw CountDooku22, we only know that Vader held back on his TK against Luke. There's no evidence he held back in Sabers.Even if he did, why did he have to let Luke chop his arm off? Does holding back mean he can't defend himself?
Just food for thought. There's no right answer here as I've said it's just a huge inconsistency between the OT and PT.
Wrong.
- You're not getting it. Vader was mentally thrown off his game - His discussion with Palpatine and his characteristics that Luke noticed later in their duel, exemplified that.
Luke chopped his arm off and did all those things, because Vader didn't want to kill Luke, period, the end.
Luke knew this, especially later.
A man who could defeat Count Dooku or Galen Marek in sabers, would not fall to a novice like Luke.
- But Vader was badly-conflicted in that fight - and Luke knew it.
Luke: Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.
Darth Vader: There is no conflict.
Luke: You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you'll destroy me now.
He was too conflicted to focus on destroying Luke (or even really wanting to) and this allowed Luke to eventually overwhelm him.
But Luke was smart enough to readily understand later on, that Vader could have killed him, if he had wanted to, Force, sabers, whatever.
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
@ CountDooku22
ANH Obi-Wan wouldn't beat ROTJ Luke in sabers....
When did I say he could? 😆
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
Also the reason Luke was swinging his saber around at Vader after he said NEVER!!! Is because he was beyond enraged, he's not going to do fancy and stupid-ass acrobatics when he is pissed off, unlike the prequel trilogy how they over coreograph the fights to be beyond unrealistic.
Also due to the fact, that unlike the Jedi fighters you see in the PT, who had an average of 15 years of training under their belt
- Luke in the OT, at the very height of it, only had 5..
Use the Math, Luke.. 🙄
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
And the only reason why Luke was shot by the "mook" is because he wasn't looking....
Durr, even though he had the Force to act as his eyes, anyway?
Durr.
He still got shot, even with enhanced metaphysical-senses. So he sucks.