Why were the sith considered to be so evil?

Whenever I ask other star wars fans why darth vader/palpatine/the empire/the sith were so evil, they tell me about the death star and the destruction of alderaan. However......

Padme refused to join Anakin to rule the galaxy with him, but she had no idea about the death star, IIRC. The death star was definitley being built during ROTS and as early as AOTC or even before AOTC, but there is no indication that Padme ever knew about it. But yet she was just so emotional in staying good and in her refusal to rule the galaxy with Vader.

That same thing goes with Obi Wan, Yoda, and Mace Windu.

There is no indication that the Jedi knew that Palpatine had the death star in the storyline, or that the death star even existed at all.

And it's not just because Palpatine betrayed the Republic or Anakin killed the Jedi by starting the Clone Wars. There is some, a LOT of indication that even if he didn't betray the Republic, the Jedi would still try to kill/arrest him, and he would be evil even then.

Mace Windu stated that the Sith oppression will never return, implying that the Sith were very evil and opressive, but the movie gives us no logical reason why.

In TPM, it's implied heavily, if not blatantly admitted that the Jedi and the Sith were mortal enemies.

And yet there was no death star even then.

Order 66 was Palpatine defending himself against the Jedi Order because they wouldn't want a Sith Lord ruling the galaxy? But for what logical reasons, exactly?

The only plausible reason that the jedi hated the sith/darkside was because of religion differences of the Force. Which technically makes the Jedi just religious perscecutors, and evil.

Well, you are certainly onto something that the film fails to explain what the Sith are- one of several basic concepts that Lucas had fleshed out in his head but seemed to forget to put on film.

But there's not the remotest doubt that Palpatine and co are evil, right from the very start of TPM as they constantly engage in assassination and overthrow for their own selfish needs. So it is very obvious that the Sith are morally defunct. Your idea that the 'only plausible reason' is simple religious differences really doesn't bear any relation to the films, and you are forgetting that Light and Dark Side are not religious beliefs but actual metaphysical realities in the Star Wars universe. Citing religious differences is neither a plausible reason in of itself nor is it the only reason to come up with there when there are much clearer ones. The Jedi are good and the Sith are evil; everything every Sith ever does goes to demonstrate this. That's pretty much the whole Star Wars deal.

Attempts like this to make the Jedi morally equivalent with the Sith simply go against the entire ethos and point of the films. You are looking at the wrong mythos if you want that kind of setup. Also, your idea that the Jedi are evil simply because the Empire hadn't built the Death Star yet really doesn't make any logical sense. You seem to be ignoring the simple fact that the Jedi were right about the Sith and would have saved the galaxy from that evil if they had stopped them. And that was the only reason they wanted to stop them- not hate, but to protect others.

It would have been nice if the genocidal history of the Sith was on-screen, but to take its absence as a reason to cast down the morals of the Jedi doesn't really work.

i have the suspicion that this is going to end up creeping back to the tired old "balance of the force= sith+jedi" fallacy.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

It would have been nice if the genocidal history of the Sith was on-screen

even some vague anecdotal history would have sufficed. all we know is that they were oppressive.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, you are certainly onto something that the film fails to explain what the Sith are- one of several basic concepts that Lucas had fleshed out in his head but seemed to forget to put on film.

But there's not the remotest doubt that Palpatine and co are evil, right from the very start of TPM as they constantly engage in assassination and overthrow for their own selfish needs. So it is very obvious that the Sith are morally defunct. Your idea that the 'only plausible reason' is simple religious differences really doesn't bear any relation to the films- it is neither a plausible reason in of itself nor is it the only reason to come up with there when there are much clearer ones. The Jedi are good and the Sith are evil; everything every Sith ever does goes to demonstrate this. Yhat's pretty much the whole Star Wars deal.

Attempts like this to make the Jedi morally equivalent with the Sith simply go against the entire ethos and point of the films. You are looking at the wrong mythos if you want that kind of setup.

Let's just agree on that one. We are given some hints throughout the prequel movies about the Sith/Jedi having a bad history with each other, but it's very vague and it's not explained in enough detail for the fans. We can all agree that that was a major fail of the prequels; they barely even explained the history of the Sith to us, why they were so evil/hated by the Jedi.

The Naboo invasion were the actions of a specific Sith Lord-aka Palpatine.

In the prequel movies, we are told that being a Sith Lord is evil, in and of itself. Mace Windu's statement about the Sith oppression prove that. It certainly seems like the naboo crisis was not the whoel

The argument that perhaps it is just Palpatine and hence also his apprentices that are evil and not necessarily the whole Sith is not actually contradicted on-screen, but I do think you are again looking at the wrong sort of story for that. Star Wars really isn't about nuanced morality; the purpose of the Sith is to represent evil in the mythos.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The argument that perhaps it is just Palpatine and hence also his apprentices that are evil and not necessarily the whole Sith is not actually contradicted on-screen, but I do think you are again looking at the wrong sort of story for that. Star Wars really isn't about nuanced morality; the purpose of the Sith is to represent evil in the mythos.

I think the EU talks about the Sith atrocities.

Please list some of them for me!

Mace Windu thought that the Sith were the enemies of the Jedi because of their oppression.

Using the films alone, the Jedi have no reason to view the Sith as "evil". But they are justified in viewing them as killers/aggressors.

Maul and the Sith are in league with (read: in charge of) an organization that blockades, invades, and occupies a peaceful planet. Maul attacks the Jedi twice, killing one of them. Dooku's fomenting secession at the head of a massive army (which in itself wouldn't be so bad, if the Republic had one of its own at inception). And a known Sith Lord is in league with another Sith Lord who also heads the Republic.

That last part is where is the seller. Religious and philosophical differences aside, one organization running both sides of a massive war is a damn good reason to call them evil.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
I think the EU talks about the Sith atrocities.

Please list some of them for me!

umm...you mean killing young-lings is not evil? Palpatine corrupting Anakin to do this would indicate hes evil.

Order 66 was also direct aggression towards the Jedi.

This kinda reminds me of WWII. Common western perception is everyone thinks Hitler and Stalin were evil, but were they really?

Originally posted by JediRobin23
umm...you mean killing young-lings is not evil? Palpatine corrupting Anakin to do this would indicate hes evil.

Order 66 was also direct aggression towards the Jedi.

This kinda reminds me of WWII. Common western perception is everyone thinks Hitler and Stalin were evil, but were they really?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The f*ck? Are you high?

No, why do you say that?

Originally posted by JediRobin23
No, why do you say that?

Originally posted by JediRobin23
Common western perception is everyone thinks Hitler and Stalin were evil, but were they really?

Are you high? explain yourself, dont just say aggressive comments without saying anything else

If I have to explain why that post was absurd, then you need to take a good look at yourself.

I didn't say that they were not evil. If you start questioning that if the sith are not evil, then what makes that different then the dictators in WWII

Because the dictators of WWII were real people who slaughtered millions of real people. They are demonstrably, incontrovertibly evil.

The Sith are a work of a fiction in a poorly written movie trilogy. If you're going to ask glib questions for the sake of comparison, then make sure to frame them as such. If you don't, you'll come off as a crass, twisted individual with a warped view of morality.

And the killing Younglings thing only occurred after the Sith were outed. The OP is questioning the Jedi opposition prior to that.

whatever point you intended to make, it obviously didn't go over as you intended.

If you recall is Lucas's interview with Kathleen Kennedy, Lucas speaks out in direct comparison with Dictatorships to his movies and how it can happen again in the real world as it did over and over in history. Lucas comes across as making his movies symbolize what can happen

The younglings thing was when Obiwan said to Anakin during the last battle ' Chancellor Palpatine was evil' then Anakin ' from my point of view the jedi are evil'. This was after Anakin killed younglings

Originally posted by JediRobin23
umm...you mean killing young-lings is not evil? Palpatine corrupting Anakin to do this would indicate hes evil.

Order 66 was also direct aggression towards the Jedi.

This kinda reminds me of WWII. Common western perception is everyone thinks Hitler and Stalin were evil, but were they really?

Quoted straight from our old friend Wookipedia

As decipted in several sources and video games, the Imperials assaulted Yavin 4 as a counterattack.

No. Order 66 was done to protect Sidious/Palpatine from religious persecution from the Jedi. Even if the galactic sized Clone Wars and the naboo invasion had never happened, Mace Windu would still go to kill Sidious/Palpatine, for the sake of preventing the supposed "sith oppression" from returning.

The Sith religion was outlawed around the time of the Russan Reformation.

The Force went out of its way to concieve a being to kill the Sith, to, key word, bring balance to the force. The Jedi were persecuting the Sith due to the Sith imbalancing the Force, a purely religious thing, and Order 66 was done by Palpatine to defend himself against the persecutors.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Because the dictators of WWII were real people who slaughtered millions of real people. They are demonstrably, incontrovertibly evil.

The Sith are a work of a fiction in a poorly written movie trilogy. If you're going to ask glib questions for the sake of comparison, then make sure to frame them as such. If you don't, you'll come off as a crass, twisted individual with a warped view of morality.

And the killing Younglings thing only occurred after the Sith were outed. The OP is questioning the Jedi opposition prior to that.

The killing of the younglings, not to mention the deaths of about 10,000 Jedi during Order 66, happened before Mace Windu went to go kill Sidious and it happened before the animosity between Mace Windu and the Sith (and in TPM, when the jedi council had anakin they talked about their sith enemies, which was long before the naboo invasion or the clone wars too).

Not to mention the fact that Order 66 never would have happened if the Jedi weren't so hell bent on wiping out the Sith Order.

Order 66, was after all, self defense against the Jedi.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Mace Windu would still go to kill Sidious/Palpatine

That's not a persecuted religious man, that's a supremely powerful leader of the government cutting down three people who went to arrest him---and arrest him not for his ideology, but for his refusal to surrender his dictatorial powers.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The killing of the younglings, not to mention the deaths of about 10,000 Jedi during Order 66, happened before Mace Windu went to go kill Sidious and it happened before the animosity between Mace Windu and the Sith

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Not to mention the fact that Order 66 never would have happened if the Jedi weren't so hell bent on wiping out the Sith Order.