Keep in mind the Sith literally started the entire Clone Wars so that they could take out the Jedi. They were playing both sides.
So, in the PT, they did a heck of a lot. The Jedi didn't know about both sides, but did know the Sith were leading the CIS (via Dooku), and the CIS was not exactly nice in themselves. They also knew Maul had killed one of their more respected masters and appeared to be behind the blockade of Naboo. In short, from their point of view, the Sith were pulling the strings that started a galactic war, and they didn't even realize just how many strings were being pulled.
Their older reputation goes back, obviously, not to the current sith, but prior ones. Which the movies don't talk about too much aside from them using the dark side- which is all about anger and hatred and such. Basically we have no signs that they were any nicer than Sidious, Tyranus, and Vader.
Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind the Sith literally started the entire Clone Wars so that they could take out the Jedi. They were playing both sides.So, in the PT, they did a heck of a lot. The Jedi didn't know about both sides, but did know the Sith were leading the CIS (via Dooku), and the CIS was not exactly nice in themselves. They also knew Maul had killed one of their more respected masters and appeared to be behind the blockade of Naboo. In short, from their point of view, the Sith were pulling the strings that started a galactic war, and they didn't even realize just how many strings were being pulled.
Their older reputation goes back, obviously, not to the current sith, but prior ones. Which the movies don't talk about too much aside from them using the dark side- which is all about anger and hatred and such. Basically we have no signs that they were any nicer than Sidious, Tyranus, and Vader.
This thread is not just about the evilness of the Sith/the galactic empire, but also about the justness of the rebels waging the Galactic Civil War. It's about the moral and ethical natures of both factions in the star wars saga.
While, yes, I definitley agree with you on this one. Some Sith did many evil things just to gain more p
But, from my POV, bringing justice to Sidious for starting the clone wars and the naboo crisis don't justify a giant galactic civil war that costed millions of lives!
And, besides, the OT never mentions the clone wars being the cause of the rebellion. Hell, the clone wars were a mystery back then, let alone the cause of the main OT's plot-the rebellion!
Why should billions of people suffer from war and why should more violence and suffering and destruction be caused just for the sake of punishing palpatine for invading naboo and starting the clone wars? Two wrongs DONT make a right.
That's vengance. Regardless of how evil a person may be, vengance is always the wrong answer.
Some wars, such as WW2, prevented more future suffering.
Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
But, from my POV, bringing justice to Sidious for starting the clone wars and the naboo crisis don't justify a giant galactic civil war that costed millions of lives!
you're attempting to rationalize that they should have allowed a mass-murderer to stay in office to avoid further bloodshed?
Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
And, besides, the OT never mentions the clone wars being the cause of the rebellion. Hell, the clone wars were a mystery back then, let alone the cause of the main OT's plot-the rebellion!Why should billions of people suffer from war and why should more violence and suffering and destruction be caused just for the sake of punishing palpatine for invading naboo and starting the clone wars? Two wrongs DONT make a right.
again you are misrepresenting the issue and being disingenuous. the jedi did not arrest palpatine out of spite or vengeance. he was a war criminal and if allowed to stay in power he would have taken exponentially more lives....which he DID.
Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
That's vengance. Regardless of how evil a person may be, vengance is always the wrong answer.
again, i think you should stop trying to convince people that you are still formulating your understanding of SW characters. its painfully obvious that your mind is made up.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
you're attempting to rationalize that they should have allowed a mass-murderer to stay in office to avoid further bloodshed?again you are misrepresenting the issue and being disingenuous. the jedi did not arrest palpatine out of spite or vengeance. he was a war criminal and if allowed to stay in power he would have taken exponentially more lives....which he DID.
again, i think you should stop trying to convince people that you are still formulating your understanding of SW characters. its painfully obvious that your mind is made up.
Waging war is stop future bloodshed is not evil, it's quite the opposite in fact.
Defeating Hitler saved millions of innocent lives from genocide in the long run, despite the deaths that happened during the war.
It was absolutley worth it in the long run defeating the Nazis, even if it meant putting aside our differences with the evil Soviets, because, despite the fact that Stalin killed more people than Hitler did, much of Stalin's high death tolls happened and what's in the past cannot be changed. Hitler's government would have killed more people had the nazis never been defeated than Stalin's government did after/during WW2. In the long run, defeating Hitler saved more lives than the lives that were lost by allowing Stalin's goverment to still exist. The worst of the Soviet atrocities were done and over with. The worst of the nazi atrocities had yet to come.
Without the heroic Russians, we would have lost ww2!
Palpatine DID exponetionally take more lives, but that was because of the rebels waging a war against him. Which if they never reblled against him, luke's aunt and uncle wouldn't have been killed, and alderaan wouldnt have been blown up.
Retaliation against an evil ruler, regardless of how sick, evil, and depraved he may be, is only justified if that war will prevent more future suffering. That's sorta like how my ww2 analogy works.
Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Palpatine DID exponetionally take more lives, but that was because of the rebels waging a war against him.
right so palpatine would have just retired to the galactic version of florida if it wasnt for the rebels.
well that solves the dilemma i've been having over whether or not to take you seriously.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
right so palpatine would have just retired to the galactic version of florida if it wasnt for the rebels.well that solves the dilemma i've been having over whether or not to take you seriously.
Let me ask you some rhetorical questions.
Would Owen and beru lars have been killed if the rebels never stole the death star plans in their fight/war against the Empire?
Would Alderaan have been destroyed if not for Tarkin wanting to spite Princeess Leia?
The answer to both of those questions is no.
Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Would Alderaan have been destroyed if not for Tarkin wanting to spite Princeess Leia?
yes yes i get it. it was LEIA's fault alderaan was destroyed, and not the people who destroyed it.
i hope ush is beginning to realize what a dreadful mistake he made by reopening this.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
yes yes i get it. it was LEIA's fault alderaan was destroyed, and not the people who destroyed it.i hope ush is beginning to realize what a dreadful mistake he made by reopening this.
ad hominem attacks don't work against my arguements. I'm having a productive discussion, as evident by my below, more detailed arguements. Reopening this thread will work if you do what I'm doing and have a productive discussion.
Your arguement was that even if the rebellion didn't exist, Palps would still commit atroicites against his people. I refuted your claims by giving two examples that proved my point that the rebels provoked imperial atrocities.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
yes yes i get it. it was LEIA's fault alderaan was destroyed, and not the people who destroyed it.i hope ush is beginning to realize what a dreadful mistake he made by reopening this.
Hold on a second, let me find some quotes from the movie dialogue to argue for my position.
Quoted straight from blueharvest.net
TAGGE: The Rebellion will continue to gain a support in the Imperial
Senate as long as....
TARKIN: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us.
I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council
permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept
away.
TAGGE: That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control
without the bureaucracy?
TARKIN: The regional governors now have direct control over
territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this
battle station.
TAGGE: And what of the Rebellion?
And from a different movie scene.
TARKIN: Perhaps she would respond to an alternative form of
persuasion.
VADER: What do you mean?
TARKIN: I think it is time we demonstrate the full power of this
station. (to soldier) Set your course for Princess Leia's home planet
of Alderaan.
TARKIN: Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems
will slip through your fingers.
TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station. In a way,
you have determined the choice of the planet that'll be destroyed
first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the
Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power...
on your home planet of Alderaan.
LEIA: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't
possibly...
TARKIN: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name
the system!
Tarkin waves menacingly toward Leia.
TARKIN: I grow tired of asking this. So it'll be the last time. Where
is the Rebel base?
Leia overhears an intercom voice announcing the approach to
Alderaan.
LEIA: (softly) Dantooine.
Leia lowers her head.
LEIA: They're on Dantooine.
TARKIN: There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. (addressing
Motti) Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready.
LEIA: What?
TARKIN: You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an
effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel
friends soon enough.
All of that dialogue proves that Alderaan's destruction was to spite Leia.
Your earlier arguement that if the rebels allowed Palps to stay in power and they didn't do anything about it, he still would have commited atrocities, is proven false by my quotes/evidence.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
your painfully fallacious logic can be applied to rape and abuse apologist rhetoric."if she had just stfu when she was told... i mean just look at her. two black eyes, so she was obviously told twice. she caused this violence"
I was actually thinking the same thing reading through this thread and seeing this guy claim that the Rebellion or Jedi 'provoked' a reaction from the, you know, evil dictatorial folk.
That's why the Sith are evil, that is why the Empire is evil. It represents the decision of a handful of people who think that they are so much better than everyone else in the galaxy that they deserve to rule them. Their subjects have no recourse, no say in anything but probably the daily minutiae of life. That is evil.
It's very true that Padme and the Jedi didn't know about the death star, but they knew that Palpatine was a Sith and that the Sith were ancient enemies, with a very bad track record of evil.
Did they know about the death star? No.
Did they know about the Sith (the bad guy's) specific pattern of behavior? Yes.
For example, even before Hitler started the Holocaust, people knew that he was a bad guy and that he was going to do more bad stuff in the future because of his very bad track record of invading other countries and taking away people's rights and freedoms and having an autocracy.
Despite the fact that the movie was very vague about this, in TPM, we learn from the Jedi that the Sith are old enemies, even before the naboo invasion. They were an ancient evil that returned, implying that they have a very long bad history as the jedi's enemies.
So, I want a list of EU pre-prequel era sith atrocities that gave them a bad history and made them evil to the Jedi and Padme.
Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
So, I want a list of EU pre-prequel era sith atrocities that gave them a bad history and made them evil to the Jedi and Padme.
i think you might enjoy this forum more
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=6
Originally posted by focus4chumps
i think you might enjoy this forum morehttp://www.killermovies.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=6
Does it violate the forum's rules to make a list of EU Sith atrocities here?