Originally posted by Ascendancy
The speed feats are a display of bladework that he showed during a downpour in which he moved both his saber and body so quickly that not a single drop touched him.
Which is complete ****ing bullshit unless the raindrops were an absurdly far distance away from each other. The writer was obviously a complete moron in that instance.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
This.Plus Bane never displayed such a speed in actual combat, even when fighting for his life...
Dafuq are you talking about? He, as every time before, overwhelmed Zannah with sabers. The encounter speaks to the fact that she realized her death was inevitable if she continued trying to engage him with blades. Prior to that as already mentioned he also was fast enough to survive against her saber when he was unarmed and in an enclosed hallway. It was only when a mass of Darkside tentacles were going to eventually lead to his demise that he resorted to trying essence transfer against her.
Being completely serious here: you need to read the material if you're going to comment on it. You literally throw out some off-the-wall crap every time you try and speak to the Bane trilogy. Tempest hates the series and the deference some of us show Bane, but at least he argues his points with statements shored up by facts.
Also not sure what the prior comment by another saying that "Bane stomps" was about. No one claimed that in this thread.
Ascendancy
Tempest hates the series
With good reason, too. But then it makes sense that LucasFilm would reserve the EU's quality writers for Sidious and allow hacks like Karpyshyn to tackle nonfactors like Bane.
Ascendancy
and the deference some of us show Bane,
And you will all pay the price for your lack of vision.
/Sidious
Ascendancy
but at least he argues his points with statements shored up by facts.
You are redeeming yourself in my eyes, infidel. Continue with your tribute of me.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
?You mean this:
Indeed. I stand corrected.
For Orbalisk Bane it again comes down to whether or not Shatterpoint can actually be utilized against them, though again it still seems unlikely that Windu could do enough damage quickly enough to take the day.
As for DoE Bane, his speed is ridiculous, but obviously Vaapad is going to aid Mace in that battle. He was capable of defeating Sidious so he is at least capable of defeating Bane. Whether he does or not depends on what Force techniques Bane is able to bring to bear and what advantages Vaapad leverages to Mace during the saber duel. We know how powerful Bane's lighting is, for instance, but we also know that Mace redirected that of Sidious, who was capable of ashing Sith worms with his.
It's not easy to just hand this to one opponent or the other. Mace defeating Sidious does not mean that he automatically beats every skilled duelist every time. Bane's speed and Force showings do not make him unstoppable either, though he is almost characterized that way.
Bane is the sole reason the Sith survived.
The Rule of Two saved the Sith.
I wouldn't say Bane is a non factor.
If Bane didn't create the rule of two Sidious wouldn't be as powerful as he is.
Or would have came up with the grand plan of destroying the Jedi or cloud their senses and vision.
Bane is the Foundation . Sidious is the successor.
Now the duel,
armored Bane? Windu with Vaapad reflecting the lightning thus electrocuting the obelisks.
Bane w/o obelisk armor? stalemate...
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Which is complete ****ing bullshit unless the raindrops were an absurdly far distance away from each other. The writer was obviously a complete moron in that instance.
And people are seriously overrating obralisk.
Windu as per RotS novel sliced lightsaber of Sidious in two in "precise ark". Wrists and head are enough targets to defeat Bane. Wrists and lightsaber hilt is where Jedi aim anyway.
Also, lets not forget Windu grappling Kar Vastor. If Windu turns it into grappling, Bane is a toast.
Originally posted by ArhaelExcept his wrists are only partially exposed, and can not be cut off. It was attempted, he regen'd in a second.
👆And people are seriously overrating obralisk.
Windu as per RotS novel sliced lightsaber of Sidious in two in "precise ark". Wrists and head are enough targets to defeat Bane. Wrists and lightsaber hilt is where Jedi aim anyway.Also, lets not forget Windu grappling Kar Vastor. If Windu turns it into grappling, Bane is a toast.
Wrong. Bane I believe is larger than Vastor, and easily as strong, if not stronger.
Originally posted by Pwned
Except his wrists are only partially exposed, and can not be cut off. It was attempted, he regen'd in a second.Wrong. Bane I believe is larger than Vastor, and easily as strong, if not stronger.
"Wrong" and "I believe" don't really mix as we both give opinion on first place. And I don't agree that Bane compares to Kar Vastor in strength. Racially he wasn't as strong, neither he had potential of Kar Vastor, who was compared even to Yoda and Anakin and neither he had strength feats comparable to Kar Vastor.
Finally, I didn't say a word about strength. Strength is far from being the main factor in grappling. Both Kar Vastor and Windu are established as skilled unarmed combatants, which Bane is not.
Originally posted by Arhael
I don't know much info about obralisk but logically he should have vulnerable points everywhere, where his joints bend, otherwise he wouldn't be able to move comfortably. If someone failed to cut off his wrist, then his opponent simply missed the joint or only partially reached it. But that doesn't mean that even wrists can't be cut off."Wrong" and "I believe" don't really mix as we both give opinion on first place. And I don't agree that Bane compares to Kar Vastor in strength. Racially he wasn't as strong, neither he had potential of Kar Vastor, who was compared even to Yoda and Anakin and neither he had strength feats comparable to Kar Vastor.
Finally, I didn't say a word about strength. Strength is far from being the main factor in grappling. Both Kar Vastor and Windu are established as skilled unarmed combatants, which Bane is not.
Did you even read the freaking books? The opening is Bane having to freaking fight for his life against a dbag miner out to kill him. He then survived a knife fight against multiple trained soldiers when he was unarmed, then went on to serve in a military special ops unit himself. You're just trying to be dense if you think he lacks hand-to-hand skills.
As to size, read the descriptions: Bane is over six feet tall and ripped from his years in the mines.
As to the limbs, they possibly could be removed, but they are literally his only weak points. Again, in the novel--which it seems you neglected to glance at for salient points--the most skilled Jedi duelist makes precise strikes to sever his hand/nerves and he regens almost instantly. He was attacked by THREE Battle Meditation aided Jedi at once and they failed to sever anything. In the Orbalisks he is next to invincible against sabers. Zannah specifically stated that she knew he would be almost impossible to kill unless she could get him to get rid of the symbiotes.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Dafuq are you talking about? He, as every time before, overwhelmed Zannah with sabers. The encounter speaks to the fact that she realized her death was inevitable if she continued trying to engage him with blades. Prior to that as already mentioned he also was fast enough to survive against her saber when he was unarmed and in an enclosed hallway. It was only when a mass of Darkside tentacles were going to eventually lead to his demise that he resorted to trying essence transfer against her.
The only thing that is disputed here is that Bane DoE speed showing aka “rain feat” is applicable to combat....His impressive speed is not questioned at all...
I was under impression you were arguing that taking the “rain
feat” Bane ‘s combat speed is beyond Sidious’s.
On that ground, I disagree and stand by my claim: Bane has never showed in combat speed approachable to the one he would need to avoid these raindrops.
(on a side note, as Jinsoku pointed out, I get what author aimed to convey, but this feat is rather retarded).
Bane avoiding Zannah’s attacks, even while unarmed does not magically make his speed beyond Sidious’s. Should I remind you that good, ol’ Count Dooku displayed similar feat when fighting Ventress and Savage in close quarters.
So, in short, no, never again Bane did display such speed feat.
To the point:
Windu wins this fight.
BTW. What I take issue with is that some people tend to exaggerate their favorite character’s feats.
Examples:
“Bane leveled a temple” … when he actually leveled a pillar inside the temple, and for all we know his force push was amped by Lehon DS nexus….
or
“Sidious defeated handily Luke in sabers in DE the first time they fought”…… when he actually defeated him because they fought at a DS nexus, and next time their saber fight was much more even.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Did you even read the freaking books? The opening is Bane having to freaking fight for his life against a dbag miner out to kill him. He then survived a knife fight against multiple trained soldiers when he was unarmed, then went on to serve in a military special ops unit himself. You're just trying to be dense if you think he lacks hand-to-hand skills.As to size, read the descriptions: Bane is over six feet tall and ripped from his years in the mines.
Of course I didn't, they are shit. So, it would be kind of you to provide quotes of how he fought against "dbag" and trained soldiers. You sure he made it because of unarmed combat skills or it's due to his Force talents? His soldier training quality is at question as well.
As of his size, who cares. Korun race naturally has better physical capabilities. Kar Vastor on top of that had power comparable to Yoda and Anakin. Windu, also, stalemated Sidious in saber lock. Such feats of strength are hard to beat for a Sith that doesn't compare to Sidious.
As to the limbs, they possibly could be removed, but they are literally his only weak points. Again, in the novel--which it seems you neglected to glance at for salient points--the most skilled Jedi duelist makes precise strikes to sever his hand/nerves and he regens almost instantly. He was attacked by THREE Battle Meditation aided Jedi at once and they failed to sever anything. In the Orbalisks he is next to invincible against sabers. Zannah specifically stated that she knew he would be almost impossible to kill unless she could get him to get rid of the symbiotes.
"Amplified by Worror's power, the Force flowed through him and guided his blade home. The contact wasn't perfect; his lightsaber glanced off the edge of the armored shells so that he only made shallow contact with the skin beneath. Instead of severing the hand, he merely sliced deep enough to sever nerves and tendons.
Bane bellowed in rage as his weapon slipped from his grasp, the wound leaving his fingers limp and powerless"
It's clear that wrists can be cut off, it's just Jedi's attack missed, yet, shin damage was still enought to disarm him.
Again I got horrified at what a crap writing it is.
Jedi aiming at his head as the only vulnerable place is particularly silly. Karpyshyn apparently doesn't know that disarming techniques exist, which can be as effective or even more effective than killing ones.
Windu against Sidious was on the defensive whole time and the only offensive move he made was non-lethal. Kick in the film and slicing lightsaber in half in the book.
His wrists and head are the only exposed areas on him. His joints are not. His wrists are partially exposed, meaning you can not cut clean through them.
He dodged multiple sabers directed at his head mid-fight.
Bane was actually 2.1 meters tall, a little over seven feet. Yeah, that's bigger than Vastor.
Bane was trained in special operations, bit a guys thumb off, took on Republic soldiers unarmed, and could work a Hydraulic Drill for hours.
You attempt to low ball Bane without having read the books. I laugh at that.
Show me the quotes and page number where he is given the same power level as Yoda. I never saw that in my copy of Shatterpoint.
And strength does matter in grappling, because if the guy can just plain overpower you it won't really change much.
People hype up Vastor so much, but they fail to acknowledge how he is only that strong in the jungles of Haruun Kal where he is completely attuned to the planet. Anywhere else and Mace would have demolished him.
Later in the book? Mace pwned him. Still on Haruun Kal.
EDIT: And having just read the article on Korun, there is nothing to suggest they are larger or more physically capable than normal Humans other than their environment forcing it. That's not inherent.
As I said his joints are exposed:
concentrating their attacks on his face and the joints of his wrist where the orbalisks had left tiny gaps in his armor.
The attacks don't need to cut clean through, even "shallow contact" can be enough to disarm.
Jedi would not aim at head anyway, they utilize mostly disarming techniques. It's either bad writing that those Jedi aimed at head instead of trying to disarm him or they are that stupid for real.
Do you actually know Kar Vastor height? I don't and wookieepedia didn't help either.
Republic soldiers and a drill don't compare to Kar Vastor or Windu. 🙂
Oh, as if you read every single book. It's very common for people to lowball characters without knowing much about them. In my case I am aware of all his important feats. I have ebook on me, it's just I use it to get feats only.
Here is the quote:
Such power-and such control-and never a day of training. Because what he does is natural: as natural as the jungle itself. We Jedi train our entire lives: to control our natural emotions, to overcome our natural desires. We give up so much for our power. And what Jedi could have done this?"
I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.
Sorry, can't tell you exact page, I have the book as txt file.
Also, description of his physicality from Shadows of Mindor:
For an interminable stretching moment after the meltmassif egg had collapsed, all Luke had been able to do was stare blankly and think. Look at the size of him...
Kar Vastor crouched before the obsidian throne like a sabercat coiled to spring. One of his enormous hands rested on a blob of meltmassif perched on the throne's seat. His lips had peeled back to reveal teeth long and curving and sharp as stilettos. Luke blinked, and blinked again. Each of his biceps is bigger than my head...
..
He reached out with the Force and slammed shut the Falcon's hatch just as the Vastor body lurched to its feet and reached Luke in one lightning bound. Impossibly powerful hands seized Luke's shoulders as Vastor lifted him like a doll, and shook him and roared rage and bloodlust into his face, and there was nothing human left in Vastor's eyes. He sank his teeth into Luke's throat, and bit down.
As you see, the hype about Vastor's strength is not unreasonable.
Strength matters but there are ways to counter it, it's only part of equation. In any case Kar Vastor is the one who has unnatural strength and control in abundance, not Bane. I am actually helping you. I give you room to argue that Bane can counter enormous strength of Vastor with skill. 🙂
I do acknowledge that he was that strong because of the jungles. But that's irrelevant. Windu is the subject of this topic. You are actually helping me. Windu pawning Vastor still on Haruun Kal makes it much moire impressive. 😉
Yes, they are stronger because environment forcing. It's irrelevant why they are stronger than human, all that matter is that they are stronger.