Originally posted by mnat801
Yeah in his prime, Dooku was better than ROTS Windu. But by ROTS Dooku is well past his prime.
Source please. This says otherwise.
"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obvious how?
"I was looking for a kind of sword fighting, that was reminiscing of what was in the movies that we already done. But a more energized version of it, because we actually never seen a real jedi at work, we only seen old men, crippled half droid half man, and young boys that learn from these people. So to see a jedi fighting in the prime of the jedi, I wanted to be a much more energetic and faster version of it"- George Lucas.
From the Official Site:
Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.
From Lucas in the ESB Audio commentary:
He's lost a lot of power in the force,
^ He's actually talking about Vader as of ESB there. And if you think he's only talking about potential think again because he mentions potential right after saying,"He's lost a lot of power in the force and a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emperor.."
So we're going to assume Lucas just said the same thing twice in the same sentence he's obviously referring to both Power and Potential.
And then Lucas again from his Rolling Stones Interview:
Referring to what happened after his injuries:
"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
So many quotes suggesting he was likely less powerful as Vader. Whilst I've never seen anything which states or even suggests that Vader/Skywalker was in the prime of his power post-suit.
Not that I'm saying there's no way Suit Vader could take Pre-suit Vader in a fight. He of course has a decent chance with his far superior command of the Force. But I'd personally give ROTS Anakin the majority.
Originally posted by Zett
"I was looking for a kind of sword fighting, that was reminiscing of what was in the movies that we already done. But a more energized version of it, because we actually never seen a real jedi at work, we only seen old men, crippled half droid half man, and young boys that learn from these people. So to see a jedi fighting in the prime of the jedi, I wanted to be a much more energetic and faster version of it"- George Lucas.
Except old Kenobi's performance is irrelevnant in the discussion of Dooku's power because Dooku has a vastly superior command of the force.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From the Official Site:Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.
From Lucas in the ESB Audio commentary:
He's lost a lot of power in the force,
^ He's actually talking about Vader as of ESB there. And if you think he's only talking about potential think again because he mentions potential right after saying,"He's lost a lot of power in the force and a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emperor.."
So we're going to assume Lucas just said the same thing twice in the same sentence he's obviously referring to both Power and Potential.
And then Lucas again from his Rolling Stones Interview:
Referring to what happened after his injuries:
"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
So many quotes suggesting he was likely less powerful as Vader. Whilst I've never seen anything which states or even suggests that Vader/Skywalker was in the prime of his power post-suit.
Not that I'm saying there's no way Suit Vader could take Pre-suit Vader in a fight. He of course has a decent chance with his far superior command of the Force. But I'd personally give ROTS Anakin the majority.
I agree, although I think Anakin has, speed, mobility, AND power to match OT Vader. The only thing he wouldn't have over him is TK, and even in that case I don't think it'll be that big of a gap if at all. Especially because canon sources seem to hint that his command of the force decreased post Mustafar.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing he wouldn't have over him is TK, and even in that case I don't think it'll be that big of a gap if at all. Especially because canon sources seem to hint that his command of the force decreased post Mustafar.
Power in the Force decreasing means his connection to the Force. The Force aids all his abilities. Not just TK.
Vader clearly had far superior TK though (except when Anakin goes Mortis Uber). But overall power in the Force is not just about TK.
When Dooku witnesses Skywalker's tremendous power he didn't once use any TK.
Simple answer,Mace Windu...
why?
Vader isn't the only one who can use TK the way he does.
Mace Windu's Force Potenial is under rated...
While Vader is still over rated.
I gave examples in past threads.
As far as Force choke goes, is nothing to Force Crush...
Vader has weaknesses,Any technique of shatter point will sense this
And give Mace a small window of opportunity to defeat Vader.
If Vader is so superior in TK(which I seriously doubt it)
Can he use TK to lift and accelerate an object (vibro shield) to a certain speed,
hit its target and stop just within inches of the target's heart?
Hold up,let me answer that.....no.
Vader's TK is good but I wouldn't say superior.
The duel would go to Vader loosing and out of desperation,
using TK basicly physical Dun Moch throwing countless objects
while Mace deflecting these countless objects with either his light saber
or his TK....Folllowed up with an unpredictable swift decapitation...
"Sidious rebuilt Vader as a cyborg, and though his raw Force ability may have been diminished, his new dark armor made him all the more terrifying."-Official Star Wars Encyclopedia
http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/groups/sith/
"Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful."-Official Star Wars Encyclopedia.
Vader has his moments,but beating Mace in Sabers and with TK isn't one of them.
We won't see this duel or even read about it.
I know we'll debate this topic in 10 or 20 posts.
For his lack of mobility and other known and unknown weaknesses,
TK,Dun Moch,and his infamous saber throw compensates for his weaknesses.
Against Mace ,Dun Moch won't work (mental or physical)
Saber throw won't work Mace's Saber barrier and TK counters that.
Force choke? don't even try it..
Everybody's favorite Vader hype Superior TK,,,
Again you under estimate his Force Potenial in this area.
In my honest opinion after everything I read about Vader and Mace,
It won't be a factor because in my opinion this fight will be settled be light saber combat alone.
when Vader is about to loose then we'll see him use TK.
And when he does Mace will counter it with his own TK...through Vaapad.
Or Spoiler Alert !!! 501st Intervenes as usual...
Fighting Vader won't be easy, a welcomed challenge but not so quickly over with one strike or a
shatterpoint in the Force, or TK or Force choke.
Shien/Djem So vs Juyo/Vaapad this would be a great fight,a true test.
Vader's hatred of himself vs Mace's state of mind and superconducting loop.
which I personally feel is one of the many branches of tutaminis.
A personalized tutaminis that could be used as a boost or to diffuse harmful Force energy or channel it away completely.
Or with a thought into it Mace's personalized tutaminis (Super Conducting Loop)
can be described as a non harmful Force drain,
Mace could if he expanded on utilize this absorbed energy to heal wounds, manifest Force Powers or channel this absorbed energy away like he did in shatter point.
If Mace had the time to explore these possibilities it would have given him a better edge in battle.
In Shatter Point he channeled Vastor's power into him and let it flow back out of him.
I'll have a page number later.
Look very closely at the superconducting loop and tutaminis.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Fighting Vader won't be easy, a welcomed challenge but not so quickly over with one strike or a
shatterpoint in the Force, or TK or Force choke.Shien/Djem So vs Juyo/Vaapad this would be a great fight,a true test.
Vader's hatred of himself vs Mace's state of mind and superconducting loop.
which I personally feel is one of the many branches of tutaminis.
A personalized tutaminis that could be used as a boost or to diffuse harmful Force energy or channel it away completely.Or with a thought into it Mace's personalized tutaminis (Super Conducting Loop)
can be described as a non harmful Force drain,
Mace could if he expanded on utilize this absorbed energy to heal wounds, manifest Force Powers or channel this absorbed energy away like he did in shatter point.If Mace had the time to explore these possibilities it would have given him a better edge in battle.
In Shatter Point he channeled Vastor's power into him and let it flow back out of him.
I'll have a page number later.Look very closely at the superconducting loop and tutaminis.
... Please don't make Vaapad any more hax than it is. It is not tutaminis. But Mace wins. Vader is not Dooku level like he used to be.
The difference between Tutaminis and Vaapad, is that the former allows its user to absorb/redirect the physical(ie. an opponent's blaster bolts), while the latter allows its user to absorb/redirect the metaphysical(ie. an opponent's inner darkness.) That is likely why Vaapad isn't blanketed under the Tutaminis umbrella.
Additionally, Mace, as far as we know, had fully mastered Vaapad-- to the point that he was able to completely immerse himself in it-- to the point that he no longer existed as an independent being while immersed in it: "Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being." - RotS
Yet he was still unable to absorb/redirect physical attacks(w/o his lightsaber, obviously)-- as made evident when he was tooled by Palpatine's lightning once it touched his person.
Originally posted by Vensai
I think Vader's force abilities could give him an advantage over Windu, but his lack of mobility could be devastating against such an aggressive opponent. Speed might be the deciding factor here, especially if Windu's shatterpoint immediately picks up on Vader's weakness.
Originally posted by mnat801
He shouldn't need to give you a quote. It should be obvious.
"Last time we met, I was nothing but the learner and now I am the Master"
Vader implies that he improved since last encounter with Kenobi. Indeed, if he started similar rage onslaught, he would gas out pretty quickly. But Vader changed his style and now conserves his energy and relies on precision in controlled manner like Dooku.
Vader's mobility decreased, which as Djem So practitioner he did not rely on much anyway but as compensation his physical strength became much greater.