What? He turned on Palpatine because he was torturing and killing his son, and it took that for him to realize how wrong he'd been and to redeem himself in the eyes of the Force. And in killing Palpatine, he brought balance to the Force(for a time at least), like he'd been prophesied as doing by Qui-Gon.
Originally posted by KingD19It took him long enough. it just shows how weak he is to let someone do that to your own son. Anakin is one of the biggest weaklings in terms of mental fortitude I have ever seen.
What? He turned on Palpatine because he was torturing and killing his son, and it took that for him to realize how wrong he'd been and to redeem himself in the eyes of the Force. And in killing Palpatine, he brought balance to the Force(for a time at least), like he'd been prophesied as doing by Qui-Gon.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It took him long enough. it just shows how weak he is to let someone do that to your own son. Anakin is one of the biggest weaklings in terms of mental fortitude I have ever seen.
Let's see. He grew up a slave with no father, as Schmi had the "Mary/God" treatment and was artificially insiminated through the Force.
He was treated like crap by his owner up until he was about 10.
He became a bet more or less, and when he won the pod racing tournament despite Sebulba trying to murder him, he was torn away from his mother(still age 10) and force into Jedi training. Leaving his mother behind on Tattooine.
Pretty much every Jedi aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no faith in him starting out, and didn't make life too easy as he got older. Despite knowing that he wasn't a typical student, and was much more prone to his emotions since he started his training far later.
He goes back to Tattooine, finds his mother has been kidnapped, and is held as a slave by Sand People. Probably raped, and beaten to the point that the only thing keeping her alive is that she wants to see her son one last time. As soon as she sees him, she kicks the bucket. I'd kill the guys who killed my mom too. Not the kids, but Anakin's been through more than I have.
The whole while he's in a relationship with Padme, which makes things even more complicated as Anakin's mentor was all about the Living Force, and was a radical in the Order at the time. He wasn't properly trained to control his emotions.
Then he gets embarrassed a few times, loses his arm, and gets close to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, who is so manipulative he has the entire galaxy dancing on a string. No Jedi could sense Sidious. No one even really questioned the Clone Army. He manipulated Anakin for years, toying on his already phucked up life and emotional state.
He wasn't mentally weak. He got shit pretty much his entire life, and one of the most brilliant and evil minds of the time simply took advantage of that using his massive powers and resources to do so.
Originally posted by KingD19
Let's see. He grew up a slave with no father, as Schmi had the "Mary/God" treatment and was artificially insiminated through the Force.He was treated like crap by his owner up until he was about 10.
He became a bet more or less, and when he won the pod racing tournament despite Sebulba trying to murder him, he was torn away from his mother(still age 10) and force into Jedi training. Leaving his mother behind on Tattooine.
Pretty much every Jedi aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no faith in him starting out, and didn't make life too easy as he got older. Despite knowing that he wasn't a typical student, and was much more prone to his emotions since he started his training far later.
He goes back to Tattooine, finds his mother has been kidnapped, and is held as a slave by Sand People. Probably raped, and beaten to the point that the only thing keeping her alive is that she wants to see her son one last time. As soon as she sees him, she kicks the bucket. I'd kill the guys who killed my mom too. Not the kids, but Anakin's been through more than I have.
The whole while he's in a relationship with Padme, which makes things even more complicated as Anakin's mentor was all about the Living Force, and was a radical in the Order at the time. He wasn't properly trained to control his emotions.
Then he gets embarrassed a few times, loses his arm, and gets close to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, who is so manipulative he has the entire galaxy dancing on a string. No Jedi could sense Sidious. No one even really questioned the Clone Army. He manipulated Anakin for years, toying on his already phucked up life and emotional state.
He wasn't mentally weak. He got shit pretty much his entire life, and one of the most brilliant and evil minds of the time simply took advantage of that using his massive powers and resources to do so.
Wow. Nice post. I hadn't realised the extent of what he had been thru. He was also in countless life/death situations and battles. Talk about PTSD
Originally posted by KingD19Long story short. Life sucks; deal with it. Did he get a fair shake ? No, but he has to be held accountable for his actions. You act like you're his mother. The guy was a crybaby and ended up hurting his own wife. Even if she was cheating on him with Obi you don't practically kill her. He's a woman. You also don't butcher children. The guy was a real headcase. To make matters worse years later he lets his master torture his son.
Let's see. He grew up a slave with no father, as Schmi had the "Mary/God" treatment and was artificially insiminated through the Force.He was treated like crap by his owner up until he was about 10.
He became a bet more or less, and when he won the pod racing tournament despite Sebulba trying to murder him, he was torn away from his mother(still age 10) and force into Jedi training. Leaving his mother behind on Tattooine.
Pretty much every Jedi aside from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had no faith in him starting out, and didn't make life too easy as he got older. Despite knowing that he wasn't a typical student, and was much more prone to his emotions since he started his training far later.
He goes back to Tattooine, finds his mother has been kidnapped, and is held as a slave by Sand People. Probably raped, and beaten to the point that the only thing keeping her alive is that she wants to see her son one last time. As soon as she sees him, she kicks the bucket. I'd kill the guys who killed my mom too. Not the kids, but Anakin's been through more than I have.
The whole while he's in a relationship with Padme, which makes things even more complicated as Anakin's mentor was all about the Living Force, and was a radical in the Order at the time. He wasn't properly trained to control his emotions.
Then he gets embarrassed a few times, loses his arm, and gets close to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, who is so manipulative he has the entire galaxy dancing on a string. No Jedi could sense Sidious. No one even really questioned the Clone Army. He manipulated Anakin for years, toying on his already phucked up life and emotional state.
He wasn't mentally weak. He got shit pretty much his entire life, and one of the most brilliant and evil minds of the time simply took advantage of that using his massive powers and resources to do so.
Kain is mentally balls to the wall. Vader is someone who can't even deal with his own emotions. Kain beaks his mind and his body.
He didn't think she was cheating on him. He thought she'd betrayed him to the Jedi after he felt the Jedi had been betraying him constantly as time went on. It's like if a Jew ran away, his wife followed him, and she had a nazi with her. That's how he felt.
Obviously you just attack people you don't like, including characters. But I'm not arguing for Anakin/Vader to win, just that he's not what you make him out to be.
Kain wins imo, but it depends on which game you mean, or is he a combination of all the games?
Originally posted by KingD19It doesn't matter. Betrayal in the bedroom can feel just as nasty. The fact he attacked the woman he supposedly did this for showed how mentally fragile he is.
He didn't think she was cheating on him. He thought she'd betrayed him to the Jedi after he felt the Jedi had been betraying him constantly as time went on. It's like if a Jew ran away, his wife followed him, and she had a nazi with her. That's how he felt.Obviously you just attack people you don't like, including characters. But I'm not arguing for Anakin/Vader to win, just that he's not what you make him out to be.
Kain wins imo, but it depends on which game you mean, or is he a combination of all the games?
He's weak. Palpatine goads him a few times and he executes Dooku. Vader was ten times cooler pre prequels.
Kain as in the last one; Defiance.
Vader is weak. I call it how I see it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Long story short. Life sucks; deal with it. Did he get a fair shake ? No, but he has to be held accountable for his actions. You act like you're his mother. The guy was a crybaby and ended up hurting his own wife. Even if she was cheating on him with Obi you don't practically kill her. He's a woman. You also don't butcher children. The guy was a real headcase. To make matters worse years later he lets his master torture his son.Kain is mentally balls to the wall. Vader is someone who can't even deal with his own emotions. Kain beaks his mind and his body.
Except that this kind of story is exactly what makes books and trilogies etc. The issues that Anakin faced along with the expectations coupled with everyone expecting him to fail, would have left anyone ****ed in the head, Rand Al'thor from Wheel of Time is one example, Twilight Reign another. Also the guy went to the dark side killing Women and Children isn't really something they consider a issue. And he didn't let his Master torture his son, he killed his master. In that regards it isn't like Kain is any better, he ripped the wings of Raziel, and threw him into a pit where his body was desolved in acid, I know you will bring the whole "It was to give him free will" but still he did that to his own "son". So don't come here with "he let his master torture him and Kain is so much a better father and hero"
Originally posted by UtrigitaHe killed his master after he tortured him and was going to kill him. You saying he didn't sit by and let him torture him is a boldfaced lie. You can name as many weak characters as you want that doesn't change the fact Anakin is mentally fragile.
Except that this kind of story is exactly what makes books and trilogies etc. The issues that Anakin faced along with the expectations coupled with everyone expecting him to fail, would have left anyone ****ed in the head, Rand Al'thor from Wheel of Time is one example, Twilight Reign another. Also the guy went to the dark side killing Women and Children isn't really something they consider a issue. And he didn't let his Master torture his son, he killed his master. In that regards it isn't like Kain is any better, he ripped the wings of Raziel, and threw him into a pit where his body was desolved in acid, I know you will bring the whole "It was to give him free will" but still he did that to his own "son". So don't come here with "he let his master torture him and Kain is so much a better father and hero"
Kain did so for a purpose. Kain chose his own actions as opposed to Palpatine controlling him like a puppet for years.
Raziel is Kain's right hand, his sword. Kain made his destiny while Anakin was just Palp's ***** up until the end when he turned on him as well..
Originally posted by quanchi112
He killed his master after he tortured him and was going to kill him. You saying he didn't sit by and let him torture him is a boldfaced lie. You can name as many weak characters as you want that doesn't change the fact Anakin is mentally fragile.Kain did so for a purpose. Kain chose his own actions as opposed to Palpatine controlling him like a puppet for years.
Raziel is Kain's right hand, his sword. Kain made his destiny while Anakin was just Palp's ***** up until the end when he turned on him as well..
No trying to imply that Vader stood by the entire time, is a lie, Palpatine tortured Luke and for that Vader destroyed his master. It's clarified in one of the extended cuts by C3PO "But Vader couldn't bear to watch his own son suffer, he rose up and destroyed the emperor" And mentally fragile has exactly what impact on this fight? Kain has no knowledge of Anakin's history so please do tell why you see it as relevant.
Still doesn't change a thing. Kain comdemned a entire world to darkness, mutilated his son and nearly lost all in the proces. Hence we call Kain a anti hero.
Oh I guess that was why Raziel went against Kain's wish and desires on multiple occasions, and only in the end realised that he had to die, had Raziel not had that battered into his skull the Elder God would have won, and Kain couldn't have done a damm thing about it, what Raziel did in the end is no different from what Vader did. They sacrificed their lives to archive something greater.
Originally posted by UtrigitaI didn't say he stood by the entire time as he betrayed Palpatine in the end. he did stand by while he tortured Luke and only at the end did he decide to save his son's life. He still subjected his own son to be tortured by Palpatine. Fragile vader.
No trying to imply that Vader stood by the entire time, is a lie, Palpatine tortured Luke and for that Vader destroyed his master. It's clarified in one of the extended cuts by C3PO "But Vader couldn't bear to watch his own son suffer, he rose up and destroyed the emperor" And mentally fragile has exactly what impact on this fight? Kain has no knowledge of Anakin's history so please do tell why you see it as relevant.Still doesn't change a thing. Kain comdemned a entire world to darkness, mutilated his son and nearly lost all in the proces. Hence we call Kain a anti hero.
Oh I guess that was why Raziel went against Kain's wish and desires on multiple occasions, and only in the end realised that he had to die, had Raziel not had that battered into his skull the Elder God would have won, and Kain couldn't have done a damm thing about it, what Raziel did in the end is no different from what Vader did. They sacrificed their lives to archive something greater.
Kain doesn't have to know his history it's obvious just by his very nature especially pre suit.
Kain had to to stop the vicious cycle of the elder god.
Kain saved the entire world whereas vader saved his own son after Palpatine tortured him. Huge diff. Raziel tried to kill Kain but ripping his heart out did no such thing Raziel in the end realized Kain was right. vader just acted out of instinct he didn't have a plan like Kain. Vader's a schmuck.
Vader let him torture him briefly to try and turn him to the Dark Side. Once he realize it wouldn't work and Sidious would rather have Luke dead than against him, he killed him.
Also, Kain saved a world, big whoop. And he had help from a device that let him travel through time and all that crap. Anakin's singular action of killing Palpatine and letting Luke live saved the galaxy several times over.
If Luke had died, they wouldn't have been able to push back the Vong, or Abeloth, or any of the other threats to existence that Luke was integral in stopping.
Originally posted by KingD19No, not immediately only after his son pleaded for his aid and after he watched it for at least 30 seconds.
Vader let him torture him briefly to try and turn him to the Dark Side. Once he realize it wouldn't work and Sidious would rather have Luke dead than against him, he killed him.Also, Kain saved a world, big whoop. And he had help from a device that let him travel through time and all that crap. Anakin's singular action of killing Palpatine and letting Luke live saved the galaxy several times over.
If Luke had died, they wouldn't have been able to push back the Vong, or Abeloth, or any of the other threats to existence that Luke was integral in stopping.
Kain outplayed his foes unlike Anakin who was just put into a situation in which he suddenly jumped ship. The guy did it before to Windu. Mentally weak, whackjob. Anakin also saved his son and waited until his master wasn't ready for it. Cowardly.
Vader didn't plan on turning on his master he just did so in the heat of the moment.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I didn't say he stood by the entire time as he betrayed Palpatine in the end. he did stand by while he tortured Luke and only at the end did he decide to save his son's life. He still subjected his own son to be tortured by Palpatine. Fragile vader.Kain doesn't have to know his history it's obvious just by his very nature especially pre suit.
Kain had to to stop the vicious cycle of the elder god.
Kain saved the entire world whereas vader saved his own son after Palpatine tortured him. Huge diff. Raziel tried to kill Kain but ripping his heart out did no such thing Raziel in the end realized Kain was right. vader just acted out of instinct he didn't have a plan like Kain. Vader's a schmuck.
Oh you mean just like Kain ripped of Raziels wings, and threw him into a pit of water that burned him with Acid? Kain stood by as well.
Please do tell why Vader story is relevant, and how Kain can see and utilize it. You obviously think he can and that it have a bearing on this fight by all means enlighten me as to why.
Just like Vader had to see his son suffer in order to make the decision to give up his life to save his son and purify the force.
Kain began by Condemming Nosgoth to darkness in the hopes that he could find some way not to die. Kain was as afraid of death as anyone, else he would have given his life at the pillars cleansing them but he didn't instead he choosed to rule Nosgoth for 200 years. But I guess that was a good move... Vader saved his son, purified the force and ultimately helped save the Galaxy from his master. Raziel until the second he realised he had to give his life, fought Kain at every turn, it wasn't like Kain masterminded every step of the way, for instance Kain didn't want Janus to be resurrected but he still was, because Raziel defied him, and so the list goes on. Vader had a plan for multiple years, and that plan was to topple Palpatine, it didn't work the way Vader had imagined but to say that Vader didn't have a plan is wrong.
Originally posted by UtrigitaKain did so to save the land. Kain chose his own actions he didn't live off the *** of some fragile old man with a hunchback.
Oh you mean just like Kain ripped of Raziels wings, and threw him into a pit of water that burned him with Acid? Kain stood by as well.Please do tell why Vader story is relevant, and how Kain can see and utilize it. You obviously think he can and that it have a bearing on this fight by all means enlighten me as to why.
Just like Vader had to see his son suffer in order to make the decision to give up his life to save his son and purify the force.
Kain began by Condemming Nosgoth to darkness in the hopes that he could find some way not to die. Kain was as afraid of death as anyone, else he would have given his life at the pillars cleansing them but he didn't instead he choosed to rule Nosgoth for 200 years. But I guess that was a good move... Vader saved his son, purified the force and ultimately helped save the Galaxy from his master. Raziel until the second he realised he had to give his life, fought Kain at every turn, it wasn't like Kain masterminded every step of the way, for instance Kain didn't want Janus to be resurrected but he still was, because Raziel defied him, and so the list goes on. Vader had a plan for multiple years, and that plan was to topple Palpatine, it didn't work the way Vader had imagined but to say that Vader didn't have a plan is wrong.
It's relevant due to his outbursts and sloppy fighting. He was an emo kid in ROS. He was still quite formidable but his emotions were running wild. This will be obvious to seasoned fighters in a battle that he isn't in complete control of his emotions.
Vader made the choice only in the moment. He had no plan like Kain. Kain always plotted a manner in which to carve out his destiny while Vader did the bidding of others up until the end.
Kain's destiny is to save Nosgoth not eradicate the vampires. That's what the elder god wants that isn't good for the land. It is just good for the elder god. Vader betrayed his master with his back turned. Vader betrayed him like he betrayed Windu in the midst of a few seconds he changed his mind. Mentally as weak as they come.
Kain didn't control all the pieces of the board but despite their actions he still achieved his destiny. Raziel eventually found out Kain was indeed right this entire time. Kain had a plan whereas Vader just betrayed people in the heat of the moment. He even turned on his wife.
Anakin was only emotionally vulnerable on Mustafar toward the very end. And the only bad choice he made was trying to jump at Obi-Wan when he had the high ground. Normally that wouldn't have been so bad and the fight probably would have continued because Anakin is one of the most skilled saber duelists in the temple at that time. And he's profficient in at least 2-3 styles while most people favor one. But the one that Obi-Wan favored was Soresu, the most defensive form ever created, and he was the undisputed master of it.
Originally posted by KingD19He was unstable during the entire movie but at the end was basically on another level of terrible. Anakin had long enough to beat Obi. Obi fought him to a stalemate and warned him that he shouldn't jump. He did so anyways and suffered the consequences.
Anakin was only emotionally vulnerable on Mustafar toward the very end. And the only bad choice he made was trying to jump at Obi-Wan when he had the high ground. Normally that wouldn't have been so bad and the fight probably would have continued because Anakin is one of the most skilled saber duelists in the temple at that time. And he's profficient in at least 2-3 styles while most people favor one. But the one that Obi-Wan favored was Soresu, the most defensive form ever created, and he was the undisputed master of it.