Originally posted by AuraAngelObjectivity comes from the fact that when you look at the MGS universe, their characters and their capabilities and then compare them to other universes using the same set of standards, it's the conclusion you would come by giving an impartial analysis. Everything I've said so far is objective in the same sense that 2+2 is objectively 4
Well, objectively there is a lot of fiction. Objectively it's reasonable to assume that if MGS characters did only have normal human stats(since their military they wouldn't) then they are still likely to be stronger than many other universes by virtue of them having guns.Objectivity is a bold claim, particularly when you're obviously not doing it. Objective people don't go out of their way to call variables pussies since objectively there is nothing to gain from that.
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvilAnd Snakes main super power consist of NOT being able to break a pair of handcuffs and getting beaten on by 3 guards, putting his strength and speed below peak human and making him a Punisher Lite esque character
Snake could probably beat him in an arm wrestle. But Logan's main super power consists of NOT dying, so...
If you're saying its not a feat for some movement that happened before, it means little to the (compared to that) more major movements afters which compared to the bullets speed is similar. Also that railgun thing. Its said in-game that the railguns are 10 megajoule weapons, meaning a speed over 2,000m/s.
(Sub Sonic means below sonic..) With his ability he gets there.
Is there something that says his suit partially nullifies it?
This is the second time youve been arguing against Snake in a thread where we both agree on the winners.
Wolverine easily.
He speed blitzed Hand ninja recently. Literally was standing in a doorway then swooshed by them, taking guts with him.
He entered solid ground and burst out from underneath in another location in astonishing X-men when the team were fighting DANGER.
He's shown the ability to tangle with and overwhelm Deadpool who has shown insane close quarters speed evisceration feats.
Sure Logan has low showings. But most of them can be argued.
Logan's combination of speed, strength and senses are too much.
If people can show some decent feats of Snake I'm all ears and will comment in an unbiased fashion.
Damn Logan tanked a ute/truck speeding against him on a freeway recently. Crushed in the engine into his guts.
The claws are too much.
Originally posted by BloodRainWhat you just said made absolutely no sense, if we're still talking about Vamp the fact that he moves BEFORE the gun is fired means it isn't a bullet timing feat. At no point in the series did Vamp ever move with speed similar to a bullet either, he senses trajectory and gets out of the way prior. Nothing more
If you're saying its not a feat for some movement that happened before, it means little to the (compared to that) more major movements afters which compared to the bullets speed is similar. Also that railgun thing. Its said in-game that the railguns are 10 megajoule weapons, meaning a speed over 2,000m/s.(Sub Sonic means below sonic..) With his ability he gets there.
Is there something that says his suit partially nullifies it?
This is the second time youve been arguing against Snake in a thread where we both agree on the winners.
Megajoules aren't a measure of speed either, a megajoule is a unit of energy and not a measurement of distance or velocity
Tank ammo is the perfect example of this
3VBM7 variation of 125 MM smoothbore ammo muzzle energy of 6.2 mj and move at 1780 m/S
3VBM6 vartiation has a muzzle energy of 5.8 mj but moves at 1800 m/s , in fact it only has a bit more than half of the MJ that the rail gun has but moves at nearly 2000 M/S.
lower muzzle energy yet higher velocity. The fact is that having more muzzle energy or Megajoules doesnt equate to having greater velocity. We saw Fortune shoot Raiden with a rail gun and without any slow motion or camera effects it takes over a second to cover a distance of 100 feet to hit the crates behind him. End of story
But if you find any legitimate bullet timing feats for MGS characters feel free to post them, you won't be able to though, I'm far more knowledgeable on this series than you or anyone on this site and am already aware of all the characters and their feats.
Yes, when you fight Vamp in MGS2 he states that Raiden's muscles are different. He had trouble predicting his movements hence why he was grazed in the face
Talking about Snake, comparing his visible movement speed to the bullets own.
Joules is energy over a distance. Double the MJ, divide the weight, square root it, you get the speed.
And it works for those ones you listed too;
125 MM weighs 3.9kg = (((1780^2)*3.9)/ 2) = 6.178 MJ, so 6.2
Other weighs 3.6kg = (((1800^2)*3.6)/ 2) = 5.832 MJ, so 5.8
Assuming the railgun ammo is 3kg (I've seen them around 1 to 3kg, went for 3 for slower speeds), to reach 10 MJ it would have to be moving at 2,582m/s.
Stating that the railgun produces 10 MJ is giving us an approx speed.
Gives Raiden supersonic reactions if she shot at him anywhere within 25 ft.
And even though Vamp can predict the trajectory, that doesn't automatically mean he could dodge or block bullets with human speed alone.
Also the script states that it was Raiden's Skull Suit which restricts his muscles. I've been reading around and the only suits that say they restrict the users body in any way are this one and those worn by MSF soldiers, ones that apply pressure to the body unlike Snake's. It works in a different way afaik.
Doesn't Snake contend with Laughing Octopus, Solidus, Gray Fox (and other two Cyborg Ninjas) who can dodge or deflect bullets?
Gray Fox is the only Cyborg Ninja Snake took on, he never personally fought Solidus, though he did take on Laughing Octopus, whose tentacles can deflect bullets IIRC
He also killed Arsenal Tengu mooks which were also stated to be capable of blocking bullets (and displayed during gameplay) with their swords
Originally posted by BloodRainOk, I'm not sure what instance you're talking about because Snake himself has never bullet timed
Talking about Snake, comparing his visible movement speed to the bullets own.Joules is energy over a distance. Double the MJ, divide the weight, square root it, you get the speed.
And it works for those ones you listed too;
125 MM weighs 3.9kg = (((1780^2)*3.9)/ 2) = 6.178 MJ, so 6.2
Other weighs 3.6kg = (((1800^2)*3.6)/ 2) = 5.832 MJ, so 5.8
Assuming the railgun ammo is 3kg (I've seen them around 1 to 3kg, went for 3 for slower speeds), to reach 10 MJ it would have to be moving at 2,582m/s.
Stating that the railgun produces 10 MJ is giving us an approx speed.
Gives Raiden supersonic reactions if she shot at him anywhere within 25 ft.And even though Vamp can predict the trajectory, that doesn't automatically mean he could dodge or block bullets with human speed alone.
Also the script states that it was Raiden's Skull Suit which restricts his muscles. I've been reading around and the only suits that say they restrict the users body in any way are this one and those worn by MSF soldiers, ones that apply pressure to the body unlike Snake's. It works in a different way afaik.Doesn't Snake contend with Laughing Octopus, Solidus, Gray Fox (and other two Cyborg Ninjas) who can dodge or deflect bullets?
I'm aware of what joules are, the point is they aren't a measure of distance and velocity, it's a measure of energy. A single megajoule is equivalent to a 1 ton vehicle moving at 100 MPH. For 10 megajoules it would be equal to a 1 ton vehicle moving 1000MPH which would be 4693 M/s. If you actually factor weight into consideration the ammo is no where near one ton either, which would put it's velocity at a significantly lower pace.
So what have we learned here today?
More mega joules does NOT = a higher velocity. There are other factors to consider
The smoothbore tank gun that was mentioned in MGS has a megajoule output and yet only has a velocity of 1580 M/s, twice the mega joules yet only 75% the speed of your estimate
If Vamp was able to dodge or deflect bullets with speed alone he wouldn't have gotten grazed in the face. The whole instance showed Vamp able to read Raiden's muscles but having difficultly doing so because of his suit which is why he was grazed. People who can dodge or deflect bullets on their own accord do not get grazed in the face because they have a gimmicky ability that failed
I never saw Laughing Octopus deflect bullets, Solidus did thanks to his exo skeleton but Snake never fought him, Raiden did
The only reason why Snake survived against Gray Fox was because Fox wanted to die against him and he's never fought any other Cyborg Ninjas'. Olga was able to deflect bullets but the suit she and the Arsenal Tengu wore amped their senses and reflexes to enhanced ranged, without it they aren't able to do so.
Raiden is the only natural bullet timer in MGS. Everyone else who's actually bullet timed did so because of augmentations or tech.