Originally posted by Galan007
Perfect Cell, who was already SSJ2-level before Gohan killed him, was owned with a meager 2 strikes from Pikkon(physical strikes are not unique to Pikkon, btw-- they use 'em on earth too. 😛)
I don't think one gets the 'near death boost' if you're actually killed-killed, just if you're almost killed.
Hm.. and hey, didn't he lose the other android? Maybe that cut into his power a bit.
Originally posted by Q99Cell, I'm assuming, was still roughly equal to a SSJ2 when Pikkon owned him(there's no reason to assume he was any weaker, after all.) Goku was likely able to contend with Pikkon(who was >>SSJ2), because he received a massive amp after having the ever-loving shit beaten out of him by Cell, as well as the Cell Juniors, before he died..? It's the only way things make sense, imo.
I don't think one gets the 'near death boost' if you're actually killed-killed, just if you're almost killed.
Originally posted by Q99By the end of the saga, Cell no longer needed the Androids to maintain his Perfect form.
Hm.. and hey, didn't he lose the other android? Maybe that cut into his power a bit.
Originally posted by Galan007So your saying Goku had more power than SSJ2 and he couldn't transform yet?
Cell, I'm assuming, was still roughly equal to a SSJ2 when Pikkon owned him(there's no reason to assume he was any weaker, after all.) Goku was likely able to contend with Pikkon(who was >>SSJ2), because he received a massive amp after having the ever-loving shit beaten out of him by Cell, as well as the Cell Juniors, before he died..? It's the only way things make sense, imo.By the end of the saga, Cell no longer needed the Androids to maintain his Perfect form.
Originally posted by vansonbeeThat is the only thing that makes sense.
So your saying Goku had more power than SSJ2 and he couldn't transform yet?
Certainly Cell wasn't less powerful after he was killed, which means he was still on par with SSJ2 Gohan. Pikkon tooled Cell with 2 strikes-- ergo Pikkon>>Cell=SSJ2. Even though SSJ Goku wasn't quite as powerful as Pikkon, he was still very close to that level-- ergo Pikkon=/>SSJ Goku>Cell=SSJ2.
Given how insane Goku's recovery-multipliers have been in the past, I think the above is possible, and moreover, logical. Example: when Goku first arrived on Namek, his PL was 180,000. After recovering from his near-death beating at the hands of Ginyu, his PL skyrocketed to 3,000,000-- an increase of over 1,500%!!
Even if Goku merely received a fraction of that recovery-multiplier from his battle with Cell/Cell Juniors, he could have easily been on par with a SSJ2, as a standard SSJ-- remember, a SSJ2 is only 2x(ie. 200%) > a standard SSJ.
Originally posted by Galan007
Cell, I'm assuming, was still roughly equal to a SSJ2 when Pikkon owned him(there's no reason to assume he was any weaker, after all.) Goku was likely able to contend with Pikkon(who was >>SSJ2), because he received a massive amp after having the ever-loving shit beaten out of him by Cell, as well as the Cell Juniors, before he died..? It's the only way things make sense, imo.By the end of the saga, Cell no longer needed the Androids to maintain his Perfect form.
I see what you're saying, now. Cell certainly got that power-up when he regen'd from almost nothing: that was a recovery from a near death state. However, Goku was resurrected by The Otherworld peeps, not by a regen/heal from a near death state. So I don't think Goku got a power-up after death. However, he DID train for that tournie so he should have powered up. 😄
However, I think Cell getting all of his Ki back after regenerating is dumb/stupid. That's not how it works. It is a plothole. However the Toriyama apologists will just claim that Dr. Gero "built" that Ki recovery into his creation. But from whence commeth this Ki when he recovers? That's the plothole.
Originally posted by dadudemonUnless time manipulation was used to resurrect a version of Goku from before he was beaten up by Cell/Cell Juniors, then said beatings *should* have counted toward his increased PL... Or perhaps his boost did come solely from training in Otherworld.
However, Goku was resurrected by The Otherworld peeps, not by a regen/heal from a near death state. So I don't think Goku got a power-up after death. However, he DID train for that tournie so he should have powered up. 😄
Either way, his power increased substantially between the Cell Games and the Otherworld tourney.
I just remembered this:
Originally posted by Zack Fair
TBF back then I only wanted Vegeta to own people and beat the shit out of Goku. I couldn't care less if he was good or back. In fact I felt trolled because all good ole Vegetable did was talk shit and then get his ass kicked. It was only after the years when I realized he was better off the way he did getting the character development he did. Could've always just ended up being another Yamacha, Tien and/or Piccolo. If you know what I mean.
Unfortunately, that's exactly what it's starting to look like. The gap between him and Goku's power is starting to growing.
Had some question. Put it in a spoiler just in case some dont want to know what happens until they see it. Ha
Spoiler:
So was Goku matching Bills in base saiyan form? That's craziness.From what I understand Goku is a God now. (Because he can utilize God Ki) also since Whis asked if he wanted to be the God of Destruction after Bills.
Also who is Whis really? Supreme being?
Originally posted by bbrem123
Had some question. Put it in a spoiler just in case some dont want to know what happens until they see it. HaSpoiler:
So was Goku matching Bills in base saiyan form? That's craziness.From what I understand Goku is a God now. (Because he can utilize God Ki) also since Whis asked if he wanted to be the God of Destruction after Bills.
Also who is Whis really? Supreme being?
So you've seen this film?
Also, Goku did not match Bills in his base form.
Originally posted by bbrem123Given that Bills casually tooled SSJ3 Goku with one finger(literally), Goku was certainly not capable of matching him in his base form. Goku only gained enough power to contend with Bills after reaching his SSJG form-- but even that was ultimately not enough.
Had some question. Put it in a spoiler just in case some dont want to know what happens until they see it. HaSpoiler:
So was Goku matching Bills in base saiyan form? That's craziness.From what I understand Goku is a God now. (Because he can utilize God Ki) also since Whis asked if he wanted to be the God of Destruction after Bills.
Also who is Whis really? Supreme being?
As for your question about Whis: I've not yet seen the film, but perhaps these bios will help answer your questions:
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Z:_Battle_of_Gods
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Whis
It is revealed that Whis is even more powerful than Bills(apparently Whis was Bills' MA instructor.) At the end of the film, Whis karate-chops a worn-out Bills, which puts him to sleep for 3 years.
I thought Bills said Goku's SSJG form ran out mid fight. Goku didnt know this because he was able to absorb god ki now and keep his power level close to SSJG mode while not being in the actual mode itself.(looked like base to me)
Goku then re-entered SSJG mode when he has to stop Bills final attack.
you can see him leave SSJG mode in this clip
Originally posted by dadudemonHis base form is no longer the same anymore after the SSJG transformation. He now knows the feeling of being in Super Saiyan God mode and can fight at a level near it without actually being in it.
So you've seen this film?Also, Goku did not match Bills in his base form.
Originally posted by bbrem123Here is the synopsis from DBWiki:
I thought Bills said Goku's SSJG form ran out mid fight. Goku didnt know this because he was able to absorb god ki now and keep his power level close to SSJG mode while not being in the actual mode itself.(looked like base to me)Goku then re-entered SSJG mode when he has to stop Bills final attack.
you can see him leave SSJG mode in this clip
As Goku struggles against Bills' attack, he is reminded that the Super Saiyan God form's time limit had apparently run out. Goku reveals he had not noticed this, because as he fought he apparently absorbed that realm of power into his body. Due to this, even after returning to normal, Goku's power saw relatively no decrease. Bills' massive energy ball threatens to destroy the Earth, but as his friends and family cheer him on, Goku momentarily becomes a Super Saiyan God once again and repels the attack. Impressed, Bills decides to stop the fight if Goku agrees to surrender. Goku, having realized he is truly no match for the God of Destruction, obliges and steps down.
Originally posted by Zack FairI haven't seen it yet. My info comes directly from the DBWiki bios I posted above... That site is pretty much THE most reliable DB-related source available, though, so I don't have any qualms with relying on it.
When did you guys watch the movie?