Originally posted by TheHulk
LOL!? Punching through space and time highly surpasses what WBH did 😱
Originally posted by TheGodKillerI think that is just seriously based on the melting of heralds ain't it? Either way lol it is still arguable the Dark Dimension has weaker matter...
Not really. The actual power that Hulk outputted during his collision with Betty was astronomically higher than what the superficial planet busting effect shows us, a point I believe that Naija would agree with me upon. It could very well be comparable to breaking down spacetime itself.
Originally posted by TheHulk
For Wendigo,You can't because Wendigos varies...
So I can vote for Bi-beast and Armachedon to be moved to the high herald tier?
I believe Armacheddon has a better energy manipulation than Silver Surfer, but from there to brand him as a herald? Is a long shot but I should try it. especially because he has never been presented as super durable, but I should try it.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElWell glad your considering it because most people would prob think this is stupid....but yea it is arguable they are High Heralds...
So I can vote for Bi-beast and Armachedon to be moved to the high herald tier?I believe Armacheddon has a better energy manipulation than Silver Surfer, but from there to brand him as a herald? Is a long shot but I should try it. especially because he has never been presented as super durable, but I should try it.
Originally posted by TheHulk
Well glad your considering it because most people would prob think this is stupid....but yea it is arguable they are High Heralds...
I think is a bad idea tbh.
I just re-read the series, and I check what armacheddon's body has endured vs what bi beast has endured and the only low "heralds " I saw in there, were Wendigo and Foom, both of whom IIRC they have never been known for their super durable body.
I see what hulk did and accomplished in that arc and all I see, is pak confirming beyond doubt that Hulk can destroy a planet if he wants to. but from there to kill and melt millions of heralds is far fetched. the "heralds" body just can't take a planet buster and is just as easy as that. IMO
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElI 100% agree with you on the durability part...seriously they might punch well but who says their durability was good?
I think is a bad idea tbh.I just re-read the series, and I check what armacheddon's body has endured vs what bi beast has endured and the only low "heralds " I saw in there, were Wendigo and Foom, both of whom IIRC they have never been known for their super durable body.
I see what hulk did and accomplished in that arc and all I see, is pak confirming beyond doubt that Hulk can destroy a planet if he wants to. but from there to kill and melt millions of heralds is far fetched. the "heralds" body just can't take a planet buster and is just as easy as that. IMO
Well lets find some reasons...
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Good thing then that it wasn't just a baseless hyperbole about Cain breaking "dimensional walls" but actually him punching through the very fabric of space-time itself.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33809/1808065-x_men088p11_super.jpgWhich is pretty quantifiable based on what modern physics tells us. And the numbers are fairly huge in themselves, so I daresay that the feat easily rivals WBH's dark dimension rampage.
Hmm well, upon seeing the feat, the closest real life parallel I can think of is the significant amount of energy needed to warp space or create curvature in spacetime ala (Blackhole). The most recent of which Afaik can was done by a NASA scientist, Harold Sonny white, who came up with a warp drive design that required 6.5x10^19 joules. There have also been other estimations some of which suggest that it would require more energy than exists within the entire universe. None of these estimates though are based off of very concrete science and are all largely speculative.
Our understanding of general relativity precludes space from actually ripping in the comic sense. Some string theorists posit that it can but I'm unaware of any quantication of the energy or conditions it would take to do that. But i def could have missed something.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Hmm well, upon seeing the feat, the closest real life parallel I can think of is the significant amount of energy needed to warp space or create curvature in spacetime ala (Blackhole). The most recent of which Afaik can was done by a NASA scientist, Harold Sonny white, who came up with a warp drive design that required 6.5x10^19 joules. There have also been other estimations some of which suggest that it would require more energy than exists within the entire universe. None of these estimates though are based off of very concrete science and are all largely speculative.
Plus, all those estimates are actually dependent upon the size of the warp field being discussed in the said problem, along with other things like geometry of the exotic matter being used, and the oscillations involved with the intensity of the space warp etc. The math involved rarely changes from what I am aware of. It's basically intelligently manipulating various other factors in order to reduce the overall power required to accomplish such feat, with said power being gargantuan to begin with when performed in a crudely simplistic fashion. Which is somewhat similar to what Trion Juggs did: crudely tearing a hole in the fabric of space-time with his fists alone.
On that same note though, we can also argue that it's unknown what exactly is required for blowing up such astronomically huge objects like planets, moons, suns and galaxies. You mentioned a while back that we can make rough estimates based on real-life examples about how much energy/force is required to accomplish such an enormous task. IRL, nobody has witnessed first-hand the destruction of a planet, or a moon, or a galaxy. Again the bast we have are estimates based upon the peer-reviewed scientific knowledge that is most widely accepted in various elite academia at the time. Not really that different from the practice of utilizing what we know about what it takes to rip/break/tear/bend the space-time fabric, in order to gauge Trion Juggs' feat.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Our understanding of general relativity precludes space from actually ripping in the comic sense. Some string theorists posit that it can but I'm unaware of any quantication of the energy or conditions it would take to do that. But i def could have missed something.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You're confusing producing a controlled warp of space-time(intended for possible ftl travel) with breaking it down with brute strength. Superficially they might be the same thing, but for the intents and purposes of this discussion, making warp bubbles(which is what Harold White's theories are primarily involved in) for ftl space flight isn't relevant to the discussion about how much power Trion Juggs could output when he performed that feat.Plus, all those estimates are actually dependent upon the size of the warp field being discussed in the said problem, along with other things like geometry of the exotic matter being used, and the oscillations involved with the intensity of the space warp etc. The math involved rarely changes from what I am aware of. It's basically intelligently manipulating various other factors in order to reduce the overall power required to accomplish such feat, with said power being gargantuan to begin with.
On that same note though, we can also argue that it's unknown what exactly is required for blowing up such astronomically huge objects like planets, moons, suns and galaxies. You mentioned a while back that we can make rough estimates based on real-life examples about how much energy/force is required to accomplish such an enormous task. IRL, nobody has witnessed first-hand the destruction of a planet, or a moon, or a galaxy. Again the bast we have are estimates based upon the peer-reviewed scientific knowledge that is most widely accepted in various elite academia at the time. Not really that different from the practice of utilizing what we know about what it takes to rip/break/tear/bend the space-time fabric, in order to gauge Trion Juggs' feat.
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Yeah I definitely know they are not the same scientifically. That was just closest real life parallel I could think of that had any actual numbers to it.
As for the comparison with the amount of energy needed to destroy planets, while yes no one has actually Observed these things being destroyed, and the best we have are estimates based on reliable academia, I've yet to actually see a similar quantication for the minimum amount of energy or conditions it would take to rip apart a point or section of space time. That's the issue I have with this. I've seen loads of postulations regarding it being warped ,stretched, bent etc, but haven't seen much literature regarding it being actually torn apart let alone what it would take to do it. This I suspect is because unlike planetary destruction or even warping/bending spacetime which I believe mainstream modern physics at least allows for despite it's improbability and unproveness, spacetime being literally ripped is an idea precluded by most mainstream frameworks of understanding the nature of spacetime itself/ the universe.
As a science/philosophy junkie, I'm genuinely curious to see if such quantifications exist somewhere about what it would take to do this as it would be a fun read regardless of its implications for the trion juggernaut feat. In a comic, I know it's intended to be really impressive and I can definitely accept that without any fuss. However for comparative purposes with other comic feats, some rl parallel would help remove a lot of ambiguity.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Yeah I definitely know they are not the same scientifically. That was just closest real life parallel I could think of that had any actual numbers to it.As for the comparison with the amount of energy needed to destroy planets, while yes no one has actually Observed these things being destroyed, and the best we have are estimates based on reliable academia, I've yet to actually see a similar quantication for the minimum amount of energy or conditions it would take to rip apart a point or section of space time. That's the issue I have with this. I've seen loads of postulations regarding it being warped ,stretched, bent etc, but haven't seen much literature regarding it being actually torn apart let alone what it would take to do it. This I suspect is because unlike planetary destruction or even warping/bending spacetime which I believe mainstream modern physics at least allows for despite it's improbability and unproveness, spacetime being literally ripped is an idea precluded by most mainstream frameworks of understanding the nature of spacetime itself/ the universe.
As a science/philosophy junkie, I'm genuinely curious to see if such quantifications exist somewhere about what it would take to do this as it would be a fun read regardless of its implications for the trion juggernaut feat. In a comic, I know it's intended to be really impressive and I can definitely accept that without any fuss. However for comparative purposes with other comic feats, some rl parallel would help remove a lot of ambiguity.
We already know how dense an object has to be in order to produce the sufficient pressures for it to be able to break space-time similar to what Juggernaut achieved when he was possessed by the full power of Cyttorak's destructive aspect. If all your mass is compressed into a volume with it's dimensions less than your "event horizon", then you end up becoming a black hole, an object that is capable of breaking space-time. It is also important to note that Juggernaut did this thing before he reached critical mass in that storyline. The feat is considerably impressive when one looks at it from an objective viewpoint. Not that I am saying that you don't have an objective viewpoint.
Anyways, as far his other feats go, he also defeated the Trion Gods in their own dimension iirc. These beings were portrayed like Hell-Lords from what I recall, nigh-omnipotent within their own realm. Again similar to WBH outperforming a fairly powerful Demon Lord in her own domain.
These incarnations of Juggernaut and Hulk basically had such stocked up feats, coupled with the fact that they were both the pinnacle of the power-level portrayed for each character, further coupled with the fact that they both outperformed/defeated beings like the Trions and Umar in their own realms, tells me that they're both peers and this fight is a coin toss, honestly speaking.
Ah I guess the dispute between us arises in the way we understood the term ripping through time and space. In taking it fairly literally, I was looking for something in reality that mirrored an actual force induced rip as opposed too some other form of spatial distortion( ala a Blackhole which is not really a rip but just a point of infinite curvature induced by gravity and where the laws of physics are not defined).
Still upon actually taking a look at the arc, as opposed to getting nitpicky and as one who values authorial intent above real life applicability, I can take that feat coupled with his defeat of the Trion Gods as an attempt to portray juggernaut at the pinnacle of cyttoraks physical ability. Hence, I do see the parallels in his and wbhs portrayal.
Pretty evenly matched then. So probably a stalemate Or a coin toss as you said.
