Malgus' displays of lighting are definitely up there; not equal to Sidious', Bane's, and from the limited description I've read Gethzerion's, but it's no doubt some of the strongest evinced in the series. I'd have to look again, but it seems likely that he is above Dooku in terms of his abilities with lightning.
The TK feats are powerful as well but not unmatched. We see Dooku evince TK-enhanced kicks of that magnitude against Kenobi, Anakin, and others of unquestioned Force power. His Force Pushes moving people across hangars, etc, are on par with what others have demonstrated as well. Not lessening what he did, saying that it is more or less relative to a strong level Force user. Malgus cracked the bone of the soldiers that he struck; Bane's Force push on multiple occasions was unleashed at the point of being able to shatter every bone in his opponents body and liquify their very flesh. Both Kas'im and Lsu were only saved from this by channeling the Force to deflect it as well, so had it been unleashed against standard soldiers it's clear that more than just fractures would have resulted.
The last evidence of Force power is that in Bane, Sidious, Windu, Yoda, Luke, even Shan, who I think is overrated in total power, we see a mastery of the Force to the point that they demonstrate abilities that have rarely if ever been shown by others. Shan in Tutamis capable of blocking Malgus' saber bare handed, Bane in his Force Void, Sidious with his Force Storm, Yoda in his utilization of Tutamis to catch Force Lighting. We have unheard of feats demonstrated by everyone from Sadow to Exar Kun to Plageius--even in the little we learn of him--but there is nothing of this level from Malgus'. Like Dooku and Maul he is in no way weak, but we know of him simply because we were allowed a glimpse of him through the recent arc of the mythos. Dooku is never mentioned again as someone of note outside of his own era, and neither shall be Malgus. The greats all have their legacies that remain a thing of lore for those who follow, and Malgus was no great.
Malgus showed no grand feats in the areas that lead to greatness amongst Force Users. He never searched for deeper knowledge to take him beyond what he was to what he could be. He did not seek out rumors and whispers to become a Revan, or a Bane, or an Exar Kun. In Yoda, Luke, and Jacen we see Jedi who reach out to augment what they have already become. He had no great mysteries to pass on to future Sith through holocrons. His abilities are not mediocre, but neither are they legendary. Sidious uses him as an example to Vader of what a great Sith warrior can be, but not as the archetype for maintaining the Sith order; it is Bane's teachings and methods, those followed by his Master before him, that Sidious looks to for his own rule, as an example of what it is to reach the heights of the Force.
Lastly, as to the bread and butter of saber combat, in Aryn we see someone strong in the Force--but again someone not strong enough to be woven into the continuum of the Star Wars mythos--able to stand against Malgus' initial blow as he descends from the shuttle that he has just leapt from. We see her knocking him back and forcing him to give ground for a time. Contrast this to Bane. Aside from his time training in the temple before he declares himself Darth Bane there is not a single time in which he engaged in combat and was on the offensive that he didn't force his opponent back. When Kas'im confronts him in the temple on Lehon, Bane as only a Sith of a year, stands toe-to-toe with him, then pushes him back relentlessly. It is only when Bane stops to savor his victory that Kas'im is able to unleash his dual wielding and turn the tide. On Tython he remains on the offensive against a trio of battle-hardened Jedi, and continues to do so even when their weak link is called away and they are able to engage him in earnest, all the while augmented by Battle Meditation. Even when facing Zannah, an opponent who has grown up knowing the ins and outs of his abilities and who has come to challenge him for leadership of the Sith he goes on the attack from the beginning and never relents. Malgus' is not Bane's superior.
Malgus doesn't demonstrate the mental strength or capacity in the Force to have brushed off and overcome Kaan's mind domination the way Bane did. Malgus does not demonstrate the menace in the Force to cower a Sith Lor--one that all others feared for his ruthlessness--in Qoordis the way that Bane did, later crushing him in the Force as though he were nothing. The Sith were certainly weakened by infighting at the time, but there is nothing of weakness in the Jedi, and what Kopecz, Qoordis, Kaan, Kas'im and others demonstrated in surviving against them is not weak in any way. Malgus does not show the fine control in the Force necessary to channel its energies for days in order to create and stabilize a holocron. Malgus' failed in his attempts to maintain and restore the Sith order after the death of the Emperor. While Bane may have gone about it in another way, he had the foresight and drive to lay the foundation of the new Sith that would see it rise to its ultimate revenge. From Force abilities to outright tenacity he surpassed Malgus' in every estimable capacity.
Sorry for double posting (15 min limit) but Bane's lightning turning the riders to ash are whilst wearing Orbalisks;
Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.
-Rule of Two
I still don't see what makes DoE Bane superior to Malgus...
Malgus showed no grand feats in the areas that lead to greatness amongst Force Users. He never searched for deeper knowledge to take him beyond what he was to what he could be. He did not seek out rumors and whispers to become a Revan, or a Bane, or an Exar Kun. In Yoda, Luke, and Jacen we see Jedi who reach out to augment what they have already become. He had no great mysteries to pass on to future Sith through holocrons. His abilities are not mediocre, but neither are they legendary. Sidious uses him as an example to Vader of what a great Sith warrior can be, but not as the archetype for maintaining the Sith order; it is Bane's teachings and methods, those followed by his Master before him, that Sidious looks to for his own rule, as an example of what it is to reach the heights of the Force.
In other words, you view him as a strait-As student of the sith, but not one who pushed the field?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sorry for double posting (15 min limit) but Bane's lightning turning the riders to ash are whilst wearing Orbalisks;Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.
-Rule of Two
I still don't see what makes DoE Bane superior to Malgus...
There was literally nothing left of the rider. He was ash, and the only thing that remained of a multi-ton beast was a roasted chunk of flesh. Again, Malgus was not weak with his lightning, but his best showings are around that of what Bane demonstrated immediately after having declared himself Darth Bane. Bane's greatest showings disintegrated his humanoid targets both in RoT and DoE, as well as the technobeasts in the later part of RoT, though I'll leave that one alone since you don't want to include situations in which his Force Lightning was amped by the orbs.
Originally posted by Q99
In other words, you view him as a strait-As student of the sith, but not one who pushed the field?
I'd concede that's a pretty good way to put it. I'm going to have to pick up Deceived, but based on what Intrepid posted it seems that Malgus' is pretty much on par with or greater than Dooku in terms of lightning and somewhere around Vader's level in terms of TK, but again, he never produced anything that says his control of and affinity for the Force was beyond that of a great Sith fighter and at the level of a true Master. I mentioned the various feats of the others above. Something along those lines, something like Windu's mastery of Vaapad, young Anakin's linking with the Force against the Vong, Luke's amping and Force Illusion against Caedus, those kinds of things would make me think that he is just is at the level of the greatest Force users and not hold him only at the level of a great combatant.
I know some had their fun with the threads I mentioned earlier, but there are many legitimate arguments as to Bane's capability in the Bane vs threads that I mentioned, including some detailed posts in the Sidious thread and Windu thread as to where he falls based on what is written of him.
Maybe we'll see something other than what I expect if the threads are started, but I don't think that a 'Malgus vs Windu' thread will go remotely in the Sith's favor.
Something along those lines, something like Windu's mastery of Vaapad, young Anakin's linking with the Force against the Vong, Luke's amping and Force Illusion against Caedus, those kinds of things would make me think that he is just is at the level of the greatest Force users and not hold him only at the level of a great combatant.
In any case Malgus has done something unique as well. He sacrificed his love and embraced the pain it caused. Amount of anger it gave him is far better than limited brush with darkside of Vaapad or a certain Force technique mastered.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is just a mental state Windu happened to give a name. Luke's amping and Force illusion are just techniques that can be mastered by any Force user. Anakin linked with Vongs cos of a bio-crystal.In any case Malgus has done something unique as well. He sacrificed his love and embraced the pain it caused. Amount of anger it gave him is far better than limited brush with darkside of Vaapad or a certain Force technique mastered.
But Malgus did not master any higher order techniques, and none of those feats are something that some middling Force user is capable of, or even one who is strong but doesn't have beyond a high level affinity for channeling the Force.
Physically extending your presence in order to lend your power to an unseen ally and creating a Force Illusion that contains your aura to the point of convincing another person strong in the Force of your actual presence is not something that just any Force user can master. Stop being dense, you know it is not a technique that any books, manuals, etc say is easy to manifest, and especially not at that level.
All of the Sith had to sacrifice. Perhaps that's why the image of Malgus was perfect for Sidious to point to, as Vader had to do the same in his embrace of the Sith way. It was one of the whackest things in lore, but we know whom Caedus 'sacrificed' during his turning. That's the norm; uncommon manifestations of the Force are not.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Sorry to meddle in, but I want to say that I think most of us agree that RoT Bane wins.However, what is interesting is how [B]DoE
Bane fares against Malgus, so lets just do that fight. [/B]
We can continue along those lines, but I think that's much of what we discussed. Pretty much everyone agreed with you in initial arguments that Orbalisk Bane is beyond anything Malgus could ever hope to stand against. As requested earlier I stuck to mostly examples of what Bane accomplished before or after the parasites attached to him. DoE Bane lacks the armor, but everything about the descriptions of his abilities say that he was far, far more powerful then than during his youth. His manifestations of the Force continue at that point to be beyond what I believe Malgus to be capable of handling.
I've pointed to the specifics of where I think he's lacking in a duel against Bane at the height of his power.