Education is forced creativity, and creativity cannot be forced, this is a paradox
Education is forced creativity, and creativity cannot be forced, this is a paradox
education has never been about creativity
Originally posted by Oliver North
education has never been about creativity
It's always been about forced creativity according to that video.
Every intelligence related task requires creativity. Even simple math requires creativity, in order to understand, interpret, and solve a math problem one must recreate it, copy it, in their head. The must truly understand it.
In my courses, the quality of the work reflects the passion put into it. I honestly couldn't work out a form of schooling where I wouldn't need to go through the creation process on call or demand of an assignment.
My grade is a reflection of my intrinsic interest, and it's ability to encourage prodigal propensities, which I think is the case for everyone. Passion is a strong driving force that's overlooked in the schooling system to be assured.
The main driving force I have, is to be better at the tasks in the course than my peers. Mine is a competitive drive. I can ace this, because I'm quickly able to develop tasks, to understand and utilize knowledge. That's not the case for everyone.
Originally posted by Dolos
The main driving force I have, is to be better at the tasks in the course than my peers. Mine is a competitive drive. I can ace this, because I'm quickly able to develop tasks, to understand and utilize knowledge. That's not the case for everyone.
I can go into more detail about the rest of your reply, but lets just take this bit here. The intent of this thread seems to be to suggest that the system of education, as it exists, destroys creativity and prevents real learning. Also, you say you want to do the best in this system, when compared to your peers.
So, basically, you want to be stifled in your creativity more than your peers and have your real learning prevented more than them?
Originally posted by Dolos
My posts in this thread are no more than a series of mere observatory statements.
a blog might be a better format for you then
Originally posted by Oliver North
I can go into more detail about the rest of your reply, but lets just take this bit here. The intent of this thread seems to be to suggest that the system of education, as it exists, destroys creativity and prevents real learning. Also, you say you want to do the best in this system, when compared to your peers.So, basically, you want to be stifled in your creativity more than your peers and have your real learning prevented more than them?
It depends on the course, I must find a course in which my peers are passionate, or at least a course they claim to be strong in. That is a sense of confidence for them. If I can pull off greater grades, going into extra credit to be assured, yet have no interest in the course or be particularly strong in the subject, would be elating for me. It would make me feel empowered, chosen, accomplished, intelligent.
Works well with other competitive learners, though usually any of them will just tell you their grade if you ask. In fact they're very vocal about their grade.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Might I suggest opening a blog?
This forum is very much a combination of a blog and a social network and much more. In my mind, message boards are very very useful. This conversation isn't spam, it's real opinions. That to me is one of the reasons I prefer message boards to other types of social media.
Originally posted by Dolos
It depends on the course, I must find a course in which my peers are passionate, or at least a course they claim to be strong in. That is a sense of confidence for them. If I can pull off greater grades, going into extra credit to be assured, yet have no interest in the course or be particularly strong in the subject, would be elating for me. It would make me feel empowered, chosen, accomplished, intelligent.Works well with other competitive learners, though usually any of them will just tell you their grade if you ask. In fact they're very vocal about their grade.
so you are arguing against the title of your thread?
Originally posted by Oliver North
so you are arguing against the title of your thread?
There are always exceptions.
One could make the argument I chose to be competitive simply to get ahead academically, because of the value that degrees hold economically. I also wish to be not just independent, but well off.
Furthermore, the higher you get in education as per doctorates, the more likely actually scientists will take you under their wing. They certainly wouldn't decline a request into some elite learning schools. These aren't forced creativity, and highly personalized when one student is apprenticed.
My passions revolve around independence and ability to tackle direct, illusory or abstract problems. Physically, aesthetically, emotionally, intellectually, I have to be ahead. One thing I've learned is that through persistence personal progress is the one thing that can be counted on.
Originally posted by Dolos
I think a topic is limited when only allowed to go in a certain direction.
ok... what I mean is, there is no coherence to what you are saying. I've asked you what I thought were specific questions about what you are saying, and you have used that as a jumping off point to try and talk about everything from what you think grades represent to how competitive you are.
Like, cool, those are all interesting topic, however, none have really been related to what I asked you. As was mentioned before, if you just want to post your own random thoughts about school, a blog is the more appropriate format. As it is, I'm failing at trying to have a conversation with you because I can't keep up. I'm still stuck looking for some explanation of how you can possibly say that education is supposed to be about creativity in any way.
Originally posted by Dolos
It's always been about forced creativity according to that video.
1) Videos on the internet can be wrong.
2) Ken Robinson doesn't say that.
Also, our educational system (in the US) comes from a system designed for efficiently educating many children as the nation began to urbanize (Robinson mentions this) and later from a perceived need to produce as many engineers as possible in the 20th century. It has evolved a bit but generally those have been the goals.
Originally posted by Dolos
Every intelligence related task requires creativity. Even simple math requires creativity, in order to understand, interpret, and solve a math problem one must recreate it, copy it, in their head. The must truly understand it.
You can do math without understanding it, people do that all the time actually. Ever heard of multiplication tables? I'm not sure why you're grouping all cognition into creativity.
In my courses, the quality of the work reflects the passion put into it. I honestly couldn't work out a form of schooling where I wouldn't need to go through the creation process on call or demand of an assignment.
Originally posted by Dolos
My grade is a reflection of my intrinsic interest, and it's ability to encourage prodigal propensities, which I think is the case for everyone.
The idea that it is "intrinsic" interest that matters is seriously flawed. I've taken plenty of classes where the teacher managed to make me interested in content I don't much care about. A grade is a reflection of a great many things, focusing on one extremely specific thing in isolation is a mistake. I'd mainly criticize the fact that grades create a metagame, one of the most important skills for a person who wants a good grade is understanding how the teacher thinks.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
1) Videos on the internet can be wrong.
2) Ken Robinson doesn't say that.Also, our educational system (in the US) comes from a system designed for efficiently educating many children as the nation began to urbanize (Robinson mentions this) and later from a perceived need to produce as many engineers as possible in the 20th century. It has evolved a bit but generally those have been the goals.
You can do math without understanding it, people do that all the time actually. Ever heard of multiplication tables? I'm not sure why you're grouping all cognition into creativity.
You understand the problem, and that's why you're able to solve it. That's how you know what to do in addition, multiplication, division, you understand what those signs mean. It's beyond random numbers, you're performing a task. You must create an idea reflecting the problem in your head, before an accurate solution can also be created. I think creativity is an integral part of all cognitive tasks on a fundamental level.
The idea that it is "intrinsic" interest that matters is seriously flawed. I've taken plenty of classes where the teacher managed to make me interested in content I don't much care about. A grade is a reflection of a great many things, focusing on one extremely specific thing in isolation is a mistake. I'd mainly criticize the fact that grades create a metagame, one of the most important skills for a person who wants a good grade is understanding how the teacher thinks.
Well it seems like that is an inter-personal related motive, like my competitiveness - ulterior yet useful, for tackling the issue of creating without particular interest, that 'metagame' is your intrinsic interest.
Originally posted by Oliver North
just to throw it out there, almost nobody, especially professors, think marks are equal to one's level of understanding or intelligence. Marks are, 90%, an issue of how much effort an individual puts specifically into the task of getting high marks.
I don't know, you might be getting a skewed perspective from psych and neuro professors who probably more aware of controversies in test construction and operationalization.
Originally posted by Oliver North
just to throw it out there, almost nobody, especially professors, think marks are equal to one's level of understanding or intelligence. Marks are, 90%, an issue of how much effort an individual puts specifically into the task of getting high marks.
That could be a fatal mistake in educating an individual...or maybe not, as progress does seem to be a commodity to those with persistence.
My ultimatum is control, symmetry, stability in a chaotic, unfair and uncertain world - and I have that in the form of self-progress.