Top Marvel/DC Sky Fathers

Started by Rage.Of.Olympus5 pages

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's kinda strange cause they should've pre-dated them in that issue likewise.
Although that's another matter and isn't central to the main point here.

Anyway,
I was just posting one of the few instances the whole gang united.

They were all equals. (as they were during Marvel: The End) 2003

If it's "outdated" that's another issue.

I wouldn't mind seeing what new On Panel depiction cements Odin > other Sky-Fathers.

So I'm sure you have the scans and/or issue #s
where Thomas' portrayal (seems the Marvel consensus) is debunked.

I'll post them for ya if you don't have the scans. (need #s though)

This way we can be sure for ever more what the actual facts are.

Yea that shit was stupid. Thank god Simonson (The next long term writer) immediately cast doubt on that whole retcon. All the Demuirge stuff was stupid.

I don't believe Odin summoning a council of the God heads mean they're all equals. Nor do I thing Zeus blasting Thanos along with Galactus and other Cosmics cements him as their equal. I do admit that the last one idicates some sort of "peerness" etc. but not conclusive enough to sway me in a fight for example. The council is utterly meaningless however, Balder was on it. You just have to be the head of a pantheon, you don't have to meet a sort of standard of power.

What portrayal? Odin being above Zeus conclusively or Asgardians predating man?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Yea that shit was stupid. Thank god Simonson (The next long term
writer) immediately cast doubt on that whole retcon. All the Demuirge
stuff was stupid.

I don't believe Odin summoning a council of the God heads mean
they're all equals. Nor do I thing Zeus blasting Thanos along with
Galactus and other Cosmics cements him as their equal.

I do admit
that the last one idicates some sort of "peerness" etc. but not
conclusive enough to sway me in a fight for example. The council is
utterly meaningless however, Balder was on it. You just have to be
the head of a pantheon, you don't have to meet a sort of standard of
power.


Fair points.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

What portrayal?

Odin being above Zeus conclusively

or Asgardians predating man?


Well I know Odin was even portrayed as the creator of humanity,
so I'm guessing that idea is out there.

I'm more interested in Odin > other Sky-Fathers (particularly pantheons)

I know Odin may have better feats,
but it's not like the other FatherS have had ample opportunities to show their stuff.

I mean, even Zeus is limited in appearances,
in comparison with Odin even jokingly so.

So I need some kind of indicative statement or even a strong allusion
that suggests this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Fair points.

Well I know Odin was even portrayed as the creator of humanity,
so I'm guessing that idea is out there.

I'm more interested in Odin > other Sky-Fathers (particularly pantheons)

I know Odin may have better feats,
but it's not like the other FatherS have had ample opportunities to show their stuff.

I mean, even Zeus is limited in appearances,
in comparison with Odin even jokingly so.

So I need some kind of indicative statement or even a strong allusion
that suggests this.

Yes. Odin predating not only humanity, but even the current Universe was heavily suggested during Fraction's run.

Well then, the burden would be on you to prove that Zeus and the others are conclusively on Odin's level, not on me. I can simply post a high end feat from Odin and you wouldn't be able to match it for Zeus.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Well then, the burden would be on you to prove that Zeus and
the others are conclusively on Odin's level, not on me. I can simply
post a high end feat from Odin and you wouldn't be able to match it for Zeus.

The best I've portrayal I have that equates him with the "Odin-power" is from The End arc.

I'm not sure if you'll accept that since it's King Thor/Odinforce and not Odin himself,
but Starlin had Zeus being pretty badass in that story,
or as badass as he could be considering lol.

Ok, so This is King Thor possessing the OdinPower:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764082_OD2.jpg]

------------------------------

King Thor seeks help from his peer ... Zeus:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764083_OD3.jpg]

-----------------------------

Zeus bfrs himself and KT to another Dimension outside the Olympus plane:

(Zeus seeks help from their other peers)

-----------------------------

Thanos and Zeus allude to everyone in this Dimension being the same (including Thor)

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764085_OD5.jpg]

-----------------------------

This scene imo depicts the true Sky-Fathers of Pantheons (including KT) as equals:

-----------------------------

Shortly after Akhenaten obliterates Heremheb's actual spirit:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764087_OD7.jpg]

AK also attacks the Sky-FatherS themselves, and annihilates them all,
except for Zeus and King Thor ... because Zeus bfr'd their butts out of there at the last second:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764088_OD8.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764089_OD9.jpg]

... I guess not the biggest deal, but he saved OdinForce empowered Thor.

-----------------------------

When Zeus and KT come to, (they were both k.o'd even escaping)

We notice it wasn't a desperate act by Zeus,
in fact he bfr'd himself right to Eternity/Infinity's Dimension:

Not bad,
while all the other Sky-FatherS couldn't react fast enough (including KT)
Zeus did, and with precision at that.

-----------------------------

When the LT called the Cosmic tuff guys to battle against Thanos,
Zeus and Thor were representing the PantheonS:

-----------------------------

Zeus told Captain Marvel to stay back, while he and big boys handle business:

This scene compliments Zeus imo. (never mind the stompage afterwards, but the moment)

=======================================

I think that's the best Zeus portrayal I'll be able to find.

It still isn't much really,
but it does imo
strongly allude to the idea that Zeus is equal to the Odinpower wielded by King Thor.

since nobody here is going to accept the bios, i'll post a link about tom brevoort confirming marvel the end is non canon.

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/418415226996671175

so? i guess i was right after all.

^^ While we appreciate your efforts ... not really.

Ol' "Tommy's" word on some site isn't going to trump On Panel truth
supported by official handbooks.

---------------------------------------------

Thanos absorbed everything while standing withIN the 616 Universe.

"You & Gamora were outside This Reality,
tending Atleza, this Actuality's Cosmic Anchor
"

.......................................................................................

Atleza is the Cosmic Anchor of the Universe Thnaos was standing in.

Now, what Universe does Atleza Anchor?

Atleza

History: ... A succession of beings
have secured Earth-616's Reality's proper place within the cosmic vortex
...

Occupation: Anchor of Earth-616's Reality.

.......................................................................................

Thanos 616 and his involvement in Marvel: The End:

THOTI and all that jazz:

(official Marvel Handbook - 2006 - Thanos bio)

..........................................................................

Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos (coming to Handbooks this year)

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being
... "

-----------------------------------------------------------

Continues below ...

-------------------------------------------------------

(Marvel: The End #6)

Now .... 616 Thanos, in 616 Thanos' own 616 series,
explaining exactly what happened to him right above:

(Thanos #1)

The artist even goes out of his way to make the scenes identical.

.........................................................................

Thanos literally mentions the Heart of the Infinite in his 616 series:

.........................................................................

Thanos #1

.........................................................................

Just like Thanos recounted key moments of his 616 experiences during the End:

Marvel: The End #5

==============================

When ol "Tommy" commands one of his writers to make a retcon
and it's illustrated On Panel, and hopefully backed by bios,
then we'll say it's anything other than 100% canon!

^
you clearly didn't read the link i posted. Read it, brevoort said that it's non canon regardless of what was mentioned in thanos 1 or any other bio.
i appreciate the evidence you put together but it's coming from brevoort's mouth.

the reasons it was mentioned in thanos 1 is that starlin (who wrote marvel the end) thought it was canon when in fact it's not.

giving you the evidence that starlin thought it was canon:
http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html

read the first reply of starlin, he clearly thinks it canon, as he thinks that after marvel: the end it will be a starting point for thanos (which is why it was mentioned in thanos 1). Sadly it's not.

Originally posted by Mr Master
===================

Odin and Zeus are equals ... as are All true Sky-FatherS:

We see much more from Odin simply because
Asgard has always had far more play in stories.

===================

This is their only "confrontation" ... (mental kinda sizing up, they both walked away)

Here ... is proof that other Sky-Fathers are Odin's "counter-parts"


They all have the same power source ... which is ... Humanity.


👆

Originally posted by operator616
^
you clearly didn't read the link i posted. Read it, brevoort said that it's
non canon regardless of what was mentioned in thanos 1 or any other bio.

i appreciate the evidence you put together but it's coming from brevoort's mouth.


I read it, and still don't care what that name on some site said.

When it's On Panel and even better supported by official handbooks,
we'll change our view here at KMC.

To you that's Tom Brevoort. (the marvel law)

To me, that's some name/avatar on some site. (inconsequential)

I, one time decided to seek the word of WriterS on a site,
it's pointless to our purpose in a comics forum.

Originally posted by operator616

the reasons it was mentioned in thanos 1 is that starlin (who wrote
marvel the end) thought it was canon when in fact it's not.

Nonsense.

If I were to even consider that fallacy, it would mean then:

The Infinity Abyss is Non-Canon since it segues into The End. (also referenced in The End)

Thanos' 616 mini, is also non-Canon since it's the follow up to The End.

The entire 616 run of Annihilation is also Non-Canon since it developed from Thanos' mini.

Well, and basically everything after Annihilation since most of it is the aftermath post Annihilation.

Yea, from Thanos Impereative to Avengers Assemble ...

Originally posted by operator616

giving you the evidence that starlin thought it was canon:

http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html


😆 ... You should truly consider reviewing your supposed "evidence" more carefully.

First: These are interviews, while they can help you in a debate,
they MUST adhere to On Panel showings/statements, otherwise, they're meaningless.

Second: Thanx for that link, I've already read that YearS ago.
I don't think you realize that interview was made while Starlin was still working on Thanos' mini. (summer 2003)

Third: Starlin not only stated that Thanos "basically became GOD" (first paragraph)

*** But Starlin literally explains how Marvel The End transitions into Thanos' mini ***

(first paragraph)

JS: "And, as a result, he put himself back together, along with the rest of the
universe, but has gone through a bit of an epiphany while he was at it._And
the series starts off
finding Thanos deciding that it hasn’t worked being a
conqueror and all that
, so he’s going to give the lighter side of life a little bit of a shot
."

-------------------------------------------------

*** Starlin also explains how he didn't like the idea of The End being "non-canon"
and in fact, didn't want to do that
so instead Starlin submitted ANOTHER idea, and he just went off and did it,
and it was approved
***

(heck, Starlin even thought it was a joke at first allowing him to kill the entire Marvel Universe)

-------------------------------------------------

(fifth to last paragraph)

DB: "How did the Marvel: The End come about?
My understanding was that it was to be part of a series of stories,
such as The Hulk: The End, imaginary stories that would see the
last days of the characters
."

JS: "Well I looked at the idea, which was sort of an imaginary story,

and I didn’t really feel like doing that.

So I gave them this plot and no-one seemed to notice
that it didn’t fit in with the rest of them.
And I just went off and did this.
They approved it and I went “Ok, this works out well
”.

They’d approached me because for years they’d talked about, you know,
I’d become associated with the killing-off of characters, Warlock, Marvel
and Robin, of course. They talked about me killing-off the Marvel Universe.
It was just sort of a joke but I guess it was just (Joe) Quesada who decided
“Hey, offer him this thing and see if he really wants to kill-off the Marvel Universe
.”

http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html

-------------------------------------------------

Be thorough friend. 🙂

^
are you serious? some name/avatar in a site? please, seeing how you are a very knowledgeable guy you should know better than that.

you misunderstood me here, i never stated that all of these are non canon, i only said that at the time it was thought that marvel the end is canon, that's why there are references to it.

i realize when the interview was made. And again you misunderstood me here, the underlined part was my entire point that starlin thought it was canon.

and i dont see how you last point proves anything, nothing mentioned there proves that it's canon.

fact is, we have tom brevoort, the chief marvel editor state that it's non canon regardless of the bios and everything else, because honestly, there has been evidence that marvel the end is canon, and there has been evidence that it was non canon, the only way to be sure is to get the opinion of the editor, in which he replied it was non canon regardless of the bios, which makes sense, since all the end comics are non canon.

^^ Yea, I'm dead serious.

There is absolutely zero/no evidence of any kind On Panel or Handbooks,
that even slightly alludes to The End being "non-canon."

It's only that name/avatar at that site claiming this.

Simple.

If you have something/anything (on panel or handbooks) that even suggests it's "non-canon"
we'll discuss this further.

Until then, nothing's gonna change in this forum.

PS. I. nor anyone else, should have to investigate internet forums,
or sites of any kind to know what's happening in the comics themselves.

In Marvel Comics (on panel) and in their Official Handbooks,
Marvel The End, is 100% Canon! (as proven on this page conclusively)

... fin ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Yea, I'm dead serious.

There is absolutely zero/no evidence of any kind On Panel or Handbooks,
that even slightly alludes to The End being "non-canon."

It's only that name/avatar at that site claiming this.

Simple.

If you have something/anything (on panel or handbooks) that even suggests it's "non-canon"
we'll discuss this further.

Until then, nothing's gonna change in this forum.

PS. I. nor anyone else, should have to investigate internet forums,
or sites of any kind to know what's happening in the comics themselves.

In Marvel Comics (on panel) and in their Official Handbooks,
Marvel The End, is 100% Canon! (as proven on this page conclusively)

... fin ...

there is evidence:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/30j0jfn.jpg

so now we have 2 pieces of evidence, one stating it's canon the other non canon. and in that case im going with the words of marvel's editor, it's that simple. Regardless of what you might think, i want this to be canon (it was a great story arc) but im just going by the facts.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The best I've portrayal I have that equates him with the "Odin-power" is from The End arc.

I'm not sure if you'll accept that since it's King Thor/Odinforce and not Odin himself,
but Starlin had Zeus being pretty badass in that story,
or as badass as he could be considering lol.

Ok, so This is King Thor possessing the OdinPower:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764082_OD2.jpg]

------------------------------

King Thor seeks help from his peer ... Zeus:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764083_OD3.jpg]

-----------------------------

Zeus bfrs himself and KT to another Dimension outside the Olympus plane:

(Zeus seeks help from their other peers)

-----------------------------

Thanos and Zeus allude to everyone in this Dimension being the same (including Thor)

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764085_OD5.jpg]

-----------------------------

This scene imo depicts the true Sky-Fathers of Pantheons (including KT) as equals:

-----------------------------

Shortly after Akhenaten obliterates Heremheb's actual spirit:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764087_OD7.jpg]

AK also attacks the Sky-FatherS themselves, and annihilates them all,
except for Zeus and King Thor ... because Zeus bfr'd their butts out of there at the last second:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764088_OD8.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15764089_OD9.jpg]

... I guess not the biggest deal, but he saved OdinForce empowered Thor.

-----------------------------

When Zeus and KT come to, (they were both k.o'd even escaping)

We notice it wasn't a desperate act by Zeus,
in fact he bfr'd himself right to Eternity/Infinity's Dimension:

Not bad,
while all the other Sky-FatherS couldn't react fast enough (including KT)
Zeus did, and with precision at that.

-----------------------------

When the LT called the Cosmic tuff guys to battle against Thanos,
Zeus and Thor were representing the PantheonS:

-----------------------------

Zeus told Captain Marvel to stay back, while he and big boys handle business:

This scene compliments Zeus imo. (never mind the stompage afterwards, but the moment)

=======================================

I think that's the best Zeus portrayal I'll be able to find.

It still isn't much really,
but it does imo
strongly allude to the idea that Zeus is equal to the Odinpower wielded by King Thor.

True it's not much but it is Zeus' greatest portrayal overall, maybe not his greatest showing in raw power (He didn't actually do anything) but that was arguably his most competent showing.

Zeus at times has been unstable, erratic and a bit foolhardy. Even downright crazy/evil once or twice. Personally I blame Odin, he's the leader, if he was around it would probably be Odin accomplishing everything and dragging Zeus along.

Definitely a possibility, although I'd give King Thor the edge over Zeus in a fight even if the Olympian had the power edge (At the end there, I doubt that was the case however). I don't see him beating Odin at all however.

^^ 👆 I respect your thoughts.

btw. I never suggested Zeus was > Thor in the story,
I still stand by the portrayal being that of equals.

*edit ... Zeus had more experience as a pantheon monarch
this is why he was taking the lead.

Originally posted by operator616
there is evidence:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/30j0jfn.jpg

so now we have 2 pieces of evidence, one stating it's canon the other
non canon. and in that case im going with the words of marvel's
editor, it's that simple. Regardless of what you might think, i want this
to be canon (it was a great story arc) but im just going by the facts.


😐 ... Where's it stated in that bio excerpt that Marvel The End is non-canon?

Are you toying with me?

Originally posted by Mr Master
😐 ... Where's it stated in that bio excerpt that Marvel The End is non-canon?

Are you toying with me?

it states that the events happened in reality 4321 which means it's non canon

Originally posted by operator616

it states that the events happened in reality 4321 which means it's non canon


Actually it doesn't say that at all.

It says Akhenaten came from and was abducted in Reality 4321,
which is true.

But that took place in the Past!

While in the Present, it was the 616 Reality in affect.

Or were you under the impression that Spiderman
and the rest of the heroes took on AK on some desert in Ancient Egypt?

No, it was on Present day Earth Reality 616, not in the year 1331!

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Heralds/Tyrant/Tyrant-22-23.jpg

Haven't read that in a while, still lovely.