Darth Maul, Savage Opress, Pre Vizsla, Bo-Katan vs Revan

SWL
I attempt to do justice with all characters involved.

But you don't. In fact, you don't come close.

And it has nothing to do with preference; plenty of people around here prefer one character or one era over another without being quite so lopsided and heavy handed with interpretation.

SWL
I regard Revan as one of the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order by virtue of all the accolades he have received within the mythos. With such repute, why is it so difficult for some to digest the assumption that Revan isn't a looser when it comes to command of the Force? Just because a character is not featured in big budget mediums, doesn't means that we should lowball him/her in comparison to more well defined and explored characters.

😐

This is kinda the crux of the problem, isn't it?

You conflate the belief of certain people that Revan would lose to certain characters as a belief that Revan is "a loser when it comes to the command of the Force."

More importantly, you're more than guilty of using stylistic differences in mediums to your advantage when it's there (as you've been doing with Vitiate et al.). But when it's not to your advantage, you cry foul.

SWL
And "Maul being most highly trained Sith in history" based assertion has been ret-conned lately; I suppose you have read the Plaguies novel and you are in touch with all the latest developments in the mythos?

No, it hasn't. What's been introduced is the idea that Sidious advertised Maul as a tool to Plagueis. Yet Maul is still regarded as the "Sith apprentice" to Darth Sidious on the official website and in other, contemporary sources.

You're manipulating a character's perception of another character and attempting to pass it off as the gospel in order to invalidate a quote you don't like.

SWL
Fair enough but my point is about relying solely on the feats based logic to determine chances of a character against other. This kind of logic isn't going to work as per numerous examples.

And I agree with that.

But you only apply it with respect to characters you happen to like. When it involves characters you don't like, you default to feat wars. When you claim Vitiate is the most powerful whatever, you hammer your opponent with feat after feat after feat after feat and expect it to be the end all. But when Revan's involved, you attack others for determining his relative weakness on feats.

SWL
I can bring my arguments on the table; whether people accept them or not is up to them. However, I am going to stick by my arguments unless someone manages to convince me otherwise. I am flexible in my views. Issue arises when people don't listen to my arguments and keep on parroting theirs like gospel.

😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But you don't. In fact, you don't come close.

And it has nothing to do with preference; plenty of people around here prefer one character or one era over another without being quite so lopsided and heavy handed with interpretation.

I admit that nobody is absolutely free from bias but I don't unnecessarily exaggerate and misrepresent information that I bring to the table to further my agenda in a debate. Much of the argument that I have offered in favor of Revan in this thread is based on sound reasoning and analysis of the available information pertaining to him. On the contrary, I have caught member (Intrepid37) exaggerating and misrepresenting information pertaining to Maul on several of his points in this thread. He even misrepresented one of my points to further his agenda in this debate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😐

This is kinda the crux of the problem, isn't it?

You conflate the belief of certain people that Revan would lose to certain characters as a belief that Revan is "a loser when it comes to the command of the Force."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
More importantly, you're more than guilty of using stylistic differences in mediums to your advantage when it's there (as you've been doing with Vitiate et al.). But when it's not to your advantage, you cry foul.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, it hasn't. What's been introduced is the idea that Sidious advertised Maul as a tool to Plagueis. Yet Maul is still regarded as the "Sith apprentice" to Darth Sidious on the official website and in other, contemporary sources.

You're manipulating a character's perception of another character and attempting to pass it off as the gospel in order to invalidate a quote you don't like.

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." (Darth Plagueis to Darth Sidious)

What do you make of this assertion of Plagueis?

In addition, if I have to take the quote regarding Maul's training from an old source literally then where is the compelling evidence that confirms Maul's great knowledge of Sith practices? Maul's story have been significantly advanced till date but the evidence of his supposed great knowledge of the Sith practices is still absent.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And I agree with that.

But you only apply it with respect to characters you happen to like. When it involves characters you don't like, you default to feat wars. When you claim Vitiate is the most powerful whatever, you hammer your opponent with feat after feat after feat after feat and expect it to be the end all. But when Revan's involved, you attack others for determining his relative weakness on feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And "Maul being most highly trained Sith in history" based assertion has been ret-conned lately; I suppose you have read the Plagueis novel and you are in touch with all the latest developments in the mythos?

What part of Plagueis retconned that assertion?

TCW series makes it perfectly clear that Maul was trained exceptionally well by Sidious.

Apparantly I have now been caught several times exaggerating Maul's power...

...and apparantly you don't know what a retcon is, Legend. Adi Gallia's death have been retconned in newer canon material i.e contradicted. Maul being one of the most dangerous hasn't been contradicted, especially considering canon proof confirms he's gotten even more powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]
This;

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." (Darth Plagueis to Darth Sidious)

What do you make of this assertion of Plagueis?

In addition, if I have to take the quote regarding Maul's training from an old source literally then where is the compelling evidence that confirms Maul's great knowledge of Sith practices? Maul's story have been significantly advanced till date but the evidence of his supposed great knowledge of the Sith practices is still absent.

[B]

Ah right you answered my question here. All the first paragraph shows is Sidious showed Maul to Plagueis as a tool. That doesn't mean it was Sidious's real intention to train him as a tool.

TCW has made it clear Maul was trained to one day be Sith Master. That's T-Canon, so it overwrites any less canon source suggesting otherwise.

I'm glad to see TCW Maul gets some more respect that he certainly deserves. 👆

Unfortunately it does not bode well for Revan, and by extension, to some other TOR era characters.... 🙁

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Apparantly I have now been caught several times exaggerating Maul's power...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
...and apparantly you don't know what a retcon is, Legend. Adi Gallia's death have been retconned in newer canon material i.e contradicted.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul being one of the most dangerous hasn't been contradicted, especially considering canon proof confirms he's gotten even more powerful.

Darth Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order. (Episode I Visual Dictionary)

Is under scrutiny and apparently retconned in the Plagueis novel. Maul is more of a brute then a well-trained Sith Lord.

----

Also, "being one of the most dangerous" is also a very old accolade; Yes, Maul have emerged stronger during the Clone Wars but I do maintain that Maul is not a heavyweight in the light of latest developments in the mythos. As an example: Darth Malgus would destroy Maul rather easily and even he is "one of the prominent" individuals in the Empire. And the Empire have very long history which suggests that many (super) powerful Sith Lords have emerged and passed. Then we have KoTOR 2 monsters and many more. Seriously, it would be unwise of you to toss around old accolades given to Maul like gospel in the light of latest developments in the mythos.

Maul is definitely "above average" and one of the strongest in his era. However, he is not impressive when the whole history is considered. Also, impressive feats, are a norm in big-budget/screen mediums in current times, so Maul isn't unique in this regard.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Unfortunately it does not bode well for Revan, and by extension, to some other TOR era characters.... 🙁

SWL
I don't?

Nope.

SWL
I admit that nobody is absolutely free from bias but I don't unnecessarily exaggerate and misrepresent information that I bring to the table to further my agenda in a debate.

haermm

SWL
Much of the argument that I have offered in favor of Revan in this thread is based on sound reasoning and analysis of the available information pertaining to him. On the contrary, I have caught member (Intrepid37) exaggerating and misrepresenting information pertaining to Maul on several of his points in this thread. He even misrepresented one of my points to further his agenda in this debate.

lol

If Intrepid37 is biased towards Maul, this is the only thread in which he's displayed it. You, on the other hand, have been demonstrably biased towards Revan, Malak, and KotOR/TOR characters since your day of registration. At its very best, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

SWL
Really? As per fans of PT/OT era lore, Revan looses to any character of note from PT/OR era. This is a pattern in many threads in this forum.

And you haven't been doing the exact same thing with PT/OT characters viz a viz KotOR/TOR era characters? 😬

SWL
I have adequate number of sources pertaining to Vitiate to make it possible for me to argue in his favor when I feel inclined to. Fans of PT/OT era lore think nothing of Vitiate either.

No, they just don't think as highly of him as you do. And they don't have to.

What do you make of this assertion of Plagueis?

SWL
In addition, if I have to take the quote regarding Maul's training from an old source literally then where is the compelling evidence that confirms Maul's great knowledge of Sith practices? Maul's story have been significantly advanced till date but the evidence of his supposed great knowledge of the Sith practices is still absent.

...I've read the book and I'm familiar with the quote and it's already been explained to you: Sidious presented Maul to Plagueis as an expendable tool but secretly trained him as a full-blown Sith.

The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded (released months after Plagueis) still refers to Maul as a Sith apprentice, as does the official website. Let it go, Maul's accolade stands.

SWL
I use all information at my disposal to argue in the favor of a character that I choose to debate for. I work with whatever data I have access to; if a character have lot of documented feats, I mention them but still do not solely rely upon them to make a point. I rely upon both logic and evidence to advance my view points.

Nah, that's horseshit. You want to reduce an argument to feat wars when it's in your advantage to do so. Quit b1tching that your opponent does the same.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nope.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
haermm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol

If Intrepid37 is biased towards Maul, this is the only thread in which he's displayed it. You, on the other hand, have been demonstrably biased towards Revan, Malak, and KotOR/TOR characters since your day of registration. At its very best, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you haven't been doing the exact same thing with PT/OT characters viz a viz KotOR/TOR era characters? 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, they just don't think as highly of him as you do. And they don't have to.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...I've read the book and I'm familiar with the quote and it's already been explained to you: Sidious presented Maul to Plagueis as an expendable tool but secretly trained him as a full-blown Sith.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded (released months after Plagueis) still refers to Maul as a Sith apprentice, as does the official website. Let it go, Maul's accolade stands.

My focus is on what kind of training he received?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, that's horseshit. You want to reduce an argument to feat wars when it's in your advantage to do so. Quit b1tching that your opponent does the same.

In this thread alone, my arguments are not restricted to feats based information. Maybe you need new (shiny) glasses.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Is under scrutiny and apparently retconned in the Plagueis novel. Maul is more of a brute then a well-trained Sith Lord.

Either you've not seen all TCW episodes featuring Maul or you've completely missed what they were showing. Maul was heavily trained in the ways of the Sith by Darth Sidious.

He used Sidious's trianing to become a new Galactic threat. He was clearly much more than the brute your making him out to be.

So how you interpret what Plagueis thought was the case is irrelevant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Either you've not seen all TCW episodes featuring Maul or you've completely missed what they were showing. Maul was heavily trained in the ways of the Sith by Darth Sidious.

He used Sidious's trianing to become a new Galactic threat. He was clearly much more than the brute your making him out to be.

So how you interpret what Plagueis thought was the case is irrelevant.

I am pointing out the fact that Maul haven't demonstrated high-level Sith knowledge which is necessary for his advancement within the Sith hierarchy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Have I stated that Maul is weak in the Force or have not received formal Sith training?

I am pointing out the fact that Maul haven't demonstrated high-level Sith knowledge which is necessary for his advancement within the Sith hierarchy.

What kind of Sith Knowledge are you referring to? Does Count Dooku qualify?

No Force lightning ergo he sucks. Tru fax.

SWL
And I must take your word for it?

You could take the word of the dozens of posters who, over the years, have called you out on it.

SWL
Kindly provide some examples, if you can.

This discussion right here is enough of an example.

SWL
I debate in favor of these characters because they are commonly misrepresented and illogically lowballed in the "versus" threads. Majority of my arguments are supported by evidence and logically constructed, though my record is not without mistakes (which is the case with almost everybody). On the whole, I have debated in favor of characters of different eras; and not just TOR era ones.

More horseshit for the mountain range of it you've been collecting. You occasionally debating in favor of non-TOR!characters does not disprove the existence of a general bias in favor of them.

SWL
If I am "biased" in the favor of TOR era lore by virtue of my posting history then you are also "biased" in the favor of PT/OT (and newer era) lore by the same token.

Yeah, except unlike you, I (a) don't deny my bias and (b) still debate under single standards.

SWL
No! I don't subscribe to the notion that TOR era characters are inferior to PT/OT/newer era characters in power and skill.

I know. But you do subscribe to the notion that PT/OT/newer era characters are inferior in power and skill to TOR era characters.

SWL
Somehow PT/OT/newer era fans believe this to be the case and they have advanced this agenda on the basis of misrepresenting statements of GL (ironically links are never provided by them) and reliance on (outdated) information. Same pattern have been observed in this thread.

You just tried to misrepresent G-canon for your own agenda in another thread. Why should I sympathize with you since you use the same tactics your enemies claim to use?

SWL
Then why single me out for ridicule?

Because you, by far, demonstrate the most egregious bias and dishonest debating methodology out of the SWVF roster of regular posters.

People don't have to think Vitiate is weaksauce to think that he's not the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

SWL
Why doesn't he demonstrates Sith powers like Dooku and Sidious?

Because he's not as powerful as Dooku or Sidious?

Likewise, you say members of the Dark Council are some of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy... why don't they demonstrate the same sort of powers as Vitiate?

I'll tell you why: because being one of the most powerful X doesn't make you as powerful as Y. Similarly, Maul being "one of" the most highly trained Sith Lords in history doesn't mean he has to be as skilled as Dooku or Sidious.

SWL
Of-course, Maul is a Sith apprentice; you think that he would be regarded as a Jedi apprentice?

My focus is on what kind of training he received?

The quote is repeated again in the 2013 revival of the Star Wars Fact File, SWL. Let it go.

SWL
I don't reduce my arguments to feat wars; do you see my arguments restricted to feats based information only in my debates?

In this thread alone, my arguments are not restricted to feats based information. Maybe you need new (shiny) glasses.

Glasses on or off, I see you piss and moan when people use your tactics for characters you don't like. Either conform to a single standard or quit b1tching.

Tempest is annihilating here. 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to understand that Star Wars is an evolving subject. The continuous expansion often results in retcons.

For example:

The present Sith Master, Darth Sidious is the diabolically brilliant mind behind training one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history: the deadly Darth Maul. (Episode I Visual Dictionary)

Now this source was published in what year exactly?

Answer: 1999

And how much have changed in Star Wars since then?

Episode II introduced Count Dooku to the lore and he put Maul to shame in terms of capabilities and understanding of the dark side.

In the grand picture of the (updated) lore till date, Maul doesn't looks special and neither does Dooku in the context of knowledge of the dark arts. So why should I ignore all of the latest developments in the mythos and treat information offered in 1999 like a gospel?

Holistic assessment of things is necessary these days.

As I pointed out before:

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, [B]but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." (Darth Plagueis to Darth Sidious) [/B]

Nothing suggests Maul still isn't one of the deadliest Sith ever. In a late 2012 canon source, Shadow Conspiracy, it is confirmed Maul has grown more powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mentioned Maul's fearsome reputation? Prove it or give-up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, shuttle pulling feat wasn't easy for him. Details below.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ok!

1. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus. The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust. (SWTOR: Revan)

Was Revan trying hard to perform this feat?

2. At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat. (SWTOR: Revan)

Was Revan trying hard to perform this feat?

2. Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. (SWTOR: Revan)

Revan simply delivered a Force push in this case.

3. Before they could join in the fight, Revan thrust his hand, palm up, in the direction of the sealed durasteel doors, blasting them wide open with the power of the Force. (SWTOR: Revan)

Was Revan trying hard to perform this feat?

4. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form. (SWTOR: Revan)

Revan gathered power here but quickly released it in raw form because he had to free himself from Vitiate's telepathic assault as soon as possible for him.

During all of the aforementioned events, Revan demonstrated great self-control instead of going all-out;

No matter how dire circumstances may become, the Jedi Knight trusts the Force and keeps a cool head. Knowledge and self-control are the critical components of wise decisions, and emotional and mental clarity are an absolute necessity. Maintaining focus allows the Knight to rely on intuition; a right mind leads to right action. (SWTOR: Jedi Knight Profile)

Revan is very calculative about his actions.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You continue to miss my point; we have no example of Revan demonstrating his peak TK abilities yet.

There we go, proof Maul hasn't displayed his ''peak TK abilities''.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
B/W Revan packs noteworthy surprises as depicted in SWTOR:

YouTube video

This fight represents Revan's confrontation with the Imperial Strike Team in a region known as the Foundary.

Revan demonstrated following;

1. Saber Throw
2. Force push
3. Force Wave
4. Raw telekinetic attacks (Bombarded the region with gigantic rocks)
5. Force Lightning Storm
6. Force invincibility (Defensive application)
7. Mysterious power (Teleportation?)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan actually demonstrated greater command of the Force in SWTOR game then Malgus. Go figure...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That so-called big starship is a lightweight Eta-class shuttle. Also, Maul didn't actually lift that ship; he pulled it (continuously) towards the edge of the cliff until it fell down on its own. His face expression during the effort suggests that he was trying hard to pull off this feat. Seriously, your exaggerations are getting annoying.

Do you know the word ''struggle''? As when Opress tried to lift all the stones, he had a lot of trouble and dropped them soon after. Maul didn't struggle, he did it with one hand in the mass of blasterfire.

Stop.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Kenobi isn't very good at defending himself against Force powers; he isn't noted for having great command of the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IFriendly sparring matches prove nothing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He wasn't a formidable opponent for Maul at that time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bad assumption; Malak's swordsmanship stats in KoTORCG are very impressive. Even if we ignore stats; cutting a swath through large number of opponents is no easy feat but requires great degree of skill and power. Stop being biased.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He may have lost if he hadn't got the blaster.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a close call and Obi-Wan got lucky.

And Grievous is a very good opponent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She did good nonetheless. And Obi-Wan got lucky.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's impressive raw power will nullify this advantage.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Unless you have concrete knowledge about Revan's bladework, you are not in the position to make such a claim.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ruling a Sith Empire successfully is a very demanding and challenging task. The ruler is supposed to be a role-model Sith and represent the very embodiment of strength and power of the dark side, otherwise the Sith Empire won't make much progress or weaken from within by internal (potential) power struggles. Unfortunately for you, Maul isn't a role-model Sith. Just because Malak accomplished something, doesn't means that Maul could do the same.

Either way, such accomplishments aren't always a matter of power and I doubt any of the factors featuring ruling an empire will decide the outcome.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maul had ambitions for sure but he was risking too much to accomplish them; he wasn't strong enough. What surprises me is that the brothers couldn't kill Obi-Wan on Florrum and you portray them as juggernauts of destruction.

Tempest has, in another thread proven circumstances were in Kenobi's favor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Easier said then done. The Republic and the Jedi Order would have crushed their plans, if not Palpatine himself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Filled with exaggerations and misrepresentations.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One more thing; Maul didn't exactly destroy Black Son group; he formed an alliance with the group. His capture was a staged event, but he did kill the leader of Black Son to secure its leadership. However, the group itself split in the aftermath.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have addressed all misconceptions in this post; stop misinterpreting my points.

Repeat:

You continue to miss my point; we have no example of Revan demonstrating his peak TK abilities yet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Addition:

We may have witnessed peak TK abilities of Maul; his effort to pull that shuttle off the cliff.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force lightning? Force Drain?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To the highest degree? Seriously? He is not strong enough to subdue an opponent like Revan. The latter is a powerhouse and understands the Force in ways Maul doesn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku no longer looks exceptional in the light of latest developments in the mythos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mr. Drew used the word "skilled." I don't know if he differentiates between skilled and mastering but he pointed out that Revan is not a specialist; he is unorthodox and unpredictable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So he is a paper tiger? Hmm!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which reinforces my point that he wasn't second to none in the Order as his apprentice claimed him to be. Actions speak louder then words.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Depends!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Read this:

"A… defensive technique. But effective. Use it if you do not wish to be hit, or if you are facing many opponents with blasters. With a lightsaber blade and enough skill in deflection, it is an excellent offense against blasters, but in other situations, it merely delays the inevitable." (Darth Traya)

Obi-Wan have limits too; he gets through lot of situations on the basis of his experience and intelligence. Bladework alone is not sufficient.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maul wasn't unparalleled in skill either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Aren't you referring to the incarnation that confronted Vader?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which reinforces my point that he wasn't second to none in the Order as his apprentice claimed him to be. Actions speak louder then words.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

...or maybe Maul is just that good?

If we're talking about Anoon Bondara it was repeated in "Cloak of Deception" that his skills with a Saber were second to none.

This time it was from Qui-Gon's POV.

SWLegend, you have two problems. You're highly underestimating Darth Maul's abilities, and you're the biggest Revan fanboy anybody could meet.

Secondly, I never compared Darth Maul to Vitiate. Maul and his team are the confronters--notice I used the word TEAM? With his extra support, he hasn't a chance of immediate infiltration/assassination. I didn't see Revan suddenly assassinating anyone in the Imperial Strike Team--not even the Agent or bounty hunter!

If I remember clearly (and I do), Savage in his rage-enhanced mode caused by pain that you expect him to endure plenty of thx to Revan, can create a Force Repulse that is extremely difficult to defend against. Secondly, Pre Vizsla and Bo-Katan are incredibly skilled in hand-to-hand. Maul is the best saberist, acrobat, and so on.

Savage has produced Force waves already. His physically enhanced saber blows send people flying, as shown in season 3.

Vizsla has overpowered Obi-Wan in hand-to-hand combat even while he was armed with a lightsaber. He fought as well as he did against Ahsoka while he was drunk. He gave even Maul a hard time. And he's the best Mandalorian swordsman I've ever seen in all of Star Wars as of yet.

Bo-Katan almost single-handedly took on four Mandalorian Super Commandos with only her body, she packed an incredible punch against Ahsoka while on top of the hull of moving, fast speeder. The only fear she ever had was of Vizsla's death. But there's no fast speeder to fight on so that doesn't count here.

Maul has overpowered/killed many Jedi using both the Force and his lightsaber. His display of power was quoted several times by Intrepid.