Starkiller and Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious and Dooku

Your interpretation and opinion on what Lucas intended is irrelevant before what he actually wrote in the script: ''His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.' He's struggling to intensify his powers, indicating that he is not holding back. Give me an actual quote from Lucas saying Sidious was faking the whole thing, because I'm not seeing anything from any of you that's actually contradicting what I'm saying. From what I can recall the actual quote is that Windu 'overpowers Palpatine who then pretends to be weak.'

And as I said, the novel contradicts the novel dozens/hundreds of times. You can't extrapolate Lucas' intentions from the novel because its so far from what Lucas ended up making, and Lucas himself contradicts the novel in pretty every much every scene. Lucas' final product, the absolute canon, shows Windu pushing forward through Sidious' assault. Thats incontrovertible.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your interpretation and opinion on what Lucas intended is irrelevant before what he actually wrote in the script: ''His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.' He's struggling to intensify his powers, indicating that he is not holding back. Give me an actual quote from Lucas saying Sidious was faking the whole thing, because I'm not seeing anything from any of you that's actually contradicting what I'm saying. From what I can recall the actual quote is that Windu 'overpowers Palpatine who then pretends to be weak.'

And as I said, the novel contradicts the novel [b]dozens/hundreds of times. You can't extrapolate Lucas' intentions from the novel because its so far from what Lucas ended up making, and Lucas himself contradicts the novel in pretty every much every scene. Lucas' final product, the absolute canon, shows Windu pushing forward through Sidious' assault. Thats incontrovertible. [/B]

And your interpretation and opinion is irrelevant to what Lucas actually said during the commentary, which was after he wrote the script, BTW. Lucas said Palpatine pretended to be weak and lose his powers. How can you give it your all if you're pretending to lose your power and be weak? The entire point of Palpatine feigning weakness was a set up to for Anakin to choose sides (the turning point), which is a plan that would have went right out the window if Palpatine killed Windu on his own, so why would Palpatine put all his effort in trying to kill Windu?

And as I said, we see Palpatine overpower the saber defense of someone who is stronger than Mace. What more proof do you need?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's feigning being too weak to continue using Force Lightning, which is obvious given that he can blast it again 20 seconds later. That doesn't mean that he's feigning Windu legitimately blocking his lightning. If Windu was barely blocking it he wouldn't be pushing his lightsaber feet towards Sidious. If he was chocking on ozone he wouldn't be leaning forward towards the blade, he would move his head back.

He caught Yoda by surprise or whatever. Yoda was blocking his lightning just fine earlier in the script.

And if you are suggesting that Palpatine gave it his all during his initial attack, well that only lasted a few seconds before he started to feign weakness. So you're saying Palpatine gave it is all for a few seconds and then suddenly decides to give up?

He probably needed to give it his all to stop Windu from pushing his lightsaber through his face the rate he was moving forward.

And yes, though it isn't for just a few seconds.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He caught Yoda by surprise or whatever. Yoda was blocking his lightning just fine earlier in the script.

I'm not going back over this again. You can't give any proof or evidents that suggests Yoda was taken by surprise. In fact, Yoda was standing battle ready, which completely contradicts the notion that he was caught by surprise, unless he is a retard or has short term memory. And I already thoroughly debunked all your arguments regarding Yoda being caught by surprise. While you have yet to explain why Yoda would retreat earlier in the script if he truly was blocking Palpatine's lightning just fine.

I said, 'or whatever'. So he was tired from using Ataru. Or his lightsaber was just too off to the side to effectively block it.

Yoda retreating in the script is just a plot hole. Probably why Lucas decided against having it in the movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He probably needed to give it his all to stop Windu from pushing his lightsaber through his face the rate he was moving forward.

And yes, though it isn't for just a few seconds.

Windu only planned to arrest him at first, so no.

And yes, it was a few seconds. It wasn't long at all.

It was a joke. 😐

Seriously though, I'm not seeing that quote saying he was faking the whole thing. He's obviously faking not being able to continue and being too weak to continue, but just as obvious is that he was not overpowering Windu. Explain to me how you factor Windu pushing forward and leaning forward into your whole idea that Sidious was butt****ing him? Because I really can't see how you can reconcile that.

Its a good 20-30 seconds until he starts talking about Windu killing him/not being able to hold it any longer. Either way, him faking being too weak to continue and him overpowering Windu are two completely different things, and the first does not contradict the second.

The fact is, Windu clearly wasn't almost eating his own lightsaber. Thats just a fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said, 'or whatever'. So he was tired from using Ataru. Or his lightsaber was just too off to the side to effectively block it.

Yoda retreating in the script is just a plot hole. Probably why Lucas decided against having it in the movie.

1. But then that contradicted your argument that blocking with the hands his harder than blocking it with a saber. So If he failed to block it with his saber due to being tired, wouldn't he also have failed to block it with his hands?

2. The force is used to absorb lightning to the saber, so being off to his side shouldn't matter much, and having his saber in front of him doesn't block his entire body anyway, which is why the force is used to draw the bolts onto the saber.

I went over this.

So are you suggesting that we disregard that part in the script. If so, then you're still on the losing end of the argument.

I thought you didn't want to get into this. 😉

1. Its called an alternative explanation. Either works fine for me.

2. It wouldn't matter in terms of drawing it into the blade, but it would be harder to keep hold of the hilt without proper positioning.

No, I suggest we recognise that Yoda retreating is a plot hole and treat it like any other plot hole. Yoda doesn't retreat because he's being overpowered, he retreats because Lucas made a goof. Remember that this is a manufactured series of events. Certain actions happen not because of the choices of the characters, but solely because of the man writing the script. We must remain cognizant of this fact when theres such a separation from the characters and the author as there is in the part we are discussing. In this case there isn't a reason for Yoda to retreat in the script. The only reason to retreat is because Lucas needed him to do so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was a joke. 😐

Seriously though, I'm not seeing that quote saying he was faking the whole thing. He's obviously faking not being able to continue and being too weak to continue, but just as obvious is that he was not overpowering Windu. Explain to me how you factor Windu pushing forward and leaning forward into your whole idea that Sidious was butt****ing him? Because I really can't see how you can reconcile that.

Its a good 20-30 seconds until he starts talking about Windu killing him/not being able to hold it any longer. Either way, him faking being too weak to continue and him overpowering Windu are two completely different things, and the first does not contradict the second.

The fact is, Windu clearly wasn't almost eating his own lightsaber. Thats just a fact.

He starts faking weakness the moment the lightning is redirected to him, which is like seconds after he began the attack.

And I didn't really say Palpatine was butt****ing him. I said Windu was clearly straining and struggling to contain the lightning, while Palpatine was on the floor faking his weakness and losing his powers.

My point is, that Palpatine couldn't have been putting full effort into it if he was pretending to be weak in an attempt to turn Anakin over to his side.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He starts faking weakness the moment the lightning is redirected to him, which is like seconds after he began the attack.

And I didn't really say Palpatine was butt****ing him. I said Windu was clearly straining and struggling to contain the lightning, while Palpatine was on the floor faking his weakness and losing his powers.

My point is, that Palpatine couldn't have been putting full effort into it if he was pretending to be weak in an attempt to turn Anakin over to his side.

No he doesn't. That his voice gets weaker is, um, ****ing pain? His face was being melted.

Again, yes Windu was struggling, but so too was Sidious. The script says he was. The fact that Windu is pushing forward shows that he was not being overpowered.

Yes he could. He's pretending to be too weak to keep blasting Windu. He is not pretending that he can't overpower Windu. The script and the movie both show that Windu wasn't being forced back and was in fact pressing forward. Pretending to be weak does not make you strong. At least, it does not make you stronger that your opponent. It just means that you're pretending to be weak. I can be fighting equally without someone and pretend to be weak and throw the fight when I could keep going in order to manipulate someone without actually being able to beat my opponent. Theres not contradiction here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought you didn't want to get into this. 😉

1. Its called an alternative explanation. Either works fine for me.

2. It wouldn't matter in terms of drawing it into the blade, but it would be harder to keep hold of the hilt without proper positioning.

No, I suggest we recognise that Yoda retreating is a plot hole and treat it like any other plot hole. Yoda doesn't retreat because he's being overpowered, he retreats because Lucas made a goof. Remember that this is a manufactured series of events. Certain actions happen not because of the choices of the characters, but solely because of the man writing the script. We must remain cognizant of this fact when theres such a separation from the characters and the author as there is in the part we are discussing. In this case there isn't a reason for Yoda to retreat in the script. The only reason to retreat is because Lucas needed him to do so.

Well this will be my last response to it.

1. Neither works though.

2. How do you know which position would be harder? When was the last time you blocked lightning with a lightsaber?

And there isn't a reason given why Yoda got his saber blasted, but you are wanting me to take your explanations for it, but unwilling to consider my explanation as to why Yoda retreated. But when we consider the entire fight as a whole in proper context, my explanation is the most logical, and gives us absolutely no reason to consider any sequence of the fight as a plot hole.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well this will be my last response to it.

1. Neither works though.

2. How do you know which position would be harder? When was the last time you blocked lightning with a lightsaber?

And there isn't a reason given why Yoda got his saber blasted, but you are wanting me to take your explanations for it, but unwilling to consider my explanation as to why Yoda retreated. But when we consider the entire fight as a whole in proper context, my explanation is the most logical, and gives us absolutely no reason to consider any sequence of the fight as a plot hole.

Good.

1. They do. Yoda being more tired later on is a legit part of his fighting style.

2. Because I have common sense, and I know that its tonnes easier to block something with your actual weight behind it and not while holding it off to the side.

Ok, but your explanation is complete bullshit. The script painstakingly makes it clear that Yoda is in the superior position and notes that Sidious is pretty ****ed, and theres nothing supporting the idea that Yoda was being overpowered. Unlike with my explanation where I'm supporting my case with actual facts and logical reasoning, your explanation is nothing but barefaced speculation that contradicts whats in the script. So no actually, your explanation is not the most logical. Its complete idiocy. No offense intended.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he doesn't. That his voice gets weaker is, um, ****ing pain? His face was being melted.

Again, yes Windu was struggling, but so too was Sidious. The script says he was. The fact that Windu is pushing forward shows that he was not being overpowered.

Yes he could. He's pretending to be too weak to keep blasting Windu. He is not pretending that he can't overpower Windu. The script and the movie both show that Windu wasn't being forced back and was in fact pressing forward. Pretending to be weak does not make you strong. At least, it does not make you stronger that your opponent. It just means that you're pretending to be weak. I can be fighting equally without someone and pretend to be weak and throw the fight when I could keep going in order to manipulate someone without actually being able to beat my opponent. Theres not contradiction here.

If his voice is getting weaker from the pain, then that would suggest that he was getting weaker, which completely contradicts Lucas's statement that he was pretending to be weak. Or are you trying to say that he was weak at first, but then he became un-weak, but decided to continue to act as if he was still weak anyway? Are you being silly on purpose?

And no, it's kinda hard to give it your all if you're giving off body signs indicating you're weak. That's like me fight someone and then pretending that I'm to weak to even stand. How can I put full concentration in beating my opponent if I'm busy giving off signs that I'm weak? Usually when you're struggling, your face gives signs of strain like Windu's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If his voice is getting weaker from the pain, then that would suggest that he was getting weaker, which completely contradicts Lucas's statement that he was pretending to be weak. Or are you trying to say that he was weak at first, but then he became un-weak, but decided to continue to act as if he was still weak anyway? Are you being silly on purpose?

And no, it's kinda hard to give it your all if you're giving off body signs indicating you're weak. That's like me fight someone and then pretending that I'm to weak to even stand. How can I put full concentration in beating my opponent if I'm busy giving off signs that I'm weak? Usually when you're struggling, your face gives signs of strain like Windu's.

No it doesn't. 😬 It just means that when he's getting lightning to the face his voice us slightly affected. You think anyone could talk normally while getting Force lightninged to the face? You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be. What I'm saying is that he wasn't actually weak, but he was pretending to be weak. Sith can feed off pain, remember. The novel even says 'He fed the power with his pain.' So no, that isn't what I'm saying. Jesus.

No it isn't. The signs Palpatine is obviously playing up are that he starts mumbling that he's weak and overacting the part. Both of which are completely divorced from his Force Lightning, which has nothing to do with his physical expressions and what he's saying.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good.

1. They do. Yoda being more tired later on is a legit part of his fighting style.

2. Because I have common sense, and I know that its tonnes easier to block something with your actual weight behind it and not while holding it off to the side.

Ok, but your explanation is complete bullshit. The script painstakingly makes it clear that Yoda is in the superior position and notes that Sidious is pretty ****ed, and theres nothing supporting the idea that Yoda was being overpowered. Unlike with my explanation where I'm supporting my case with actual facts and logical reasoning, your explanation is nothing but barefaced speculation that contradicts whats in the script. So no actually, your explanation is not the most logical. Its complete idiocy. No offense intended.

1. Which contradicts your claim that using hands to block lightning is easier.

2. Yoda would still be using his weight and strength. Just because his saber wasn't directly in front of his face doesn't mean he wasn't using the force of his strength and weight (which Yoda probably doesn't weigh a lot anyway, so I'm not sure how his weight would help any. It would be more of his force enhanced strength that he is using). Have you played baseball? You don't stand with the bat in front of you, and you use a lot of upper body strength when hitting the ball. And also if I recall correctly, Yoda did move his saber to block it.

Except the fact that he retreats does support the argument that he was having trouble containing the lightning, and it's even more supported by the fact that later on in the duel, his lightsaber was blasted right out of his hands by Sidious's lightning. My argument is the most logical, which is why you can't debunk it, and because of this, you want to call it a plot hole, which it isn't if you consider the entire fight as a whole, as I said.

BTW, I'm out.

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist getting the last word in.