Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not doubting you but if you have the ROTJ novel handy could you post a quote?
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield. So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I say Galen still takes it 6.5/10
Originally posted by The Merchant
Hmm, well Dooku vs. Vader should be another thread. As for Galen vs. Vader, what rating would you give Vader? 7-8/10?
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaI do have the novel, and no such quote exists. There does exist quotes from Vader's own perspective that Luke was genuinely defeating him--"compromising his evil" was also used (I always thought that sounded weird)--and Luke won fair and square.
Not doubting you but if you have the ROTJ novel handy could you post a quote?
No doubt a certain intrepid poster is about to argue otherwise, but the perspective of the assessment matters. If the argument is about which character would defeat which, then both need to be considered. In this case, Luke's thoughts from Courtship stand second place to Vader's own thoughts from RotJ. Vader himself admitted--to himself-- that Luke was kicking his ass despite his best efforts to stop him. Luke's future pondering are just modesty and speculation on his part.
RotJ Luke>RotJ Vader. Marek's not mentioned at this point in canon, but considering Vader's piss-poor performance in the film, he definitely started slacking following his ass-rape at Marek's large, muscular, electric paenus hands.
Or Vader was just not as good as Marek. Ockham's razor and all that.
Helluva rebuttal. What's your point? They were equals, and then they were not. How is that not fair and square? Luke used everything he had available against Vader--himself. And Vader used everything he had against Luke--himself. How is using the Dark Side to overcome a stalemate not fair? Shouldn't Vader's previous superiority be disqualified because he was using the Dark Side? You don't get to call unfairsies just because it doesn't favor your stance.
Even when they were equals, Vader was considering his possible defeat:
"For the first time, the thought was entering Vader's consciousness that his son might best him... This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in... And now he wanted revenge...
This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from this insolent child, but this was insufferable..."
This is followed by the lightsaber-throwing scene where Luke is on the catwalk. There's Vader getting pissed--"tapping the Dark Side". Is that not unfair? Or is it fair for Vader cuz he was using that advantage the whole time? If tapping the Dark is fair for Vader, it's fair for Luke. No holds-barred, everything you got. When Vader taps the Dark, Luke stumbles beneath the platform. When Luke taps the Dark, he brings Vader to his knees and lops off his hand. Or is that not "fair"?
Incidentally, when Marek used the Dark Side, he was Vader's inferior. When he turned all Jedi-y, he became superior. But I guess tapping the Light isn't fair either.
EDIT: I think I'll start keeping count of how many times this happens. It seems about once a year, a new member comes in and argues that Vader held back against Luke, or that Obi-Wan "defeated" Anakin, and I end up doing that^. Seriously, does no one else have a copy of the novelizations?
...
Logic tells us that when a Jedi uses the dark side, it fuels their power.
Qui-Gon was, in the TPM novelization, confirmed as Kenobi's superior, but was clearly inferior to Maul. When Kenobi tapped into the dark side, he was able to fight Maul as an equal.
Point is, if somones makes a TPM Kenobi vs thread, unless stated in the OP, you're not gonna take his little ''burst of anger-performance'' into account, and neither are you Luke's.
Way to ignore the fact that they were on "equal" footing prior to Luke's outburst. Equal in that Vader was having frightening doubts as to his ability to defeat Luke.
And that's another one! Kenobi and Maul. Kenobi tapped the Dark and fought Maul on equal footing... until Maul promptly kicked his ass down the shaft:
"The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two... Bit by bit he pressed him back... Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening...
Crying out in fury, he cut triumphantly at the Sith Lord's horned head, a killing blow. And missed completely."
You're not gonna take his burst of anger in to account because he still lost. Fair and square. One was stronger than the other. Light or Dark, Maul was stronger. Light or Dark, Luke was stronger. Luke was so close to victory prior to his outburst that he needed to shut off his saber lest killing his father corrupt him. You don't do that if you're inferior. So threatening was Luke's strength that Vader experienced fear and humiliation. All that--prior to Luke's outburst.
Light Luke makes Vader scared.
Pissed Luke utterly destroys Vader.
That's a discrepancy in power that can't be dismissed with a "well he's not supposed to be tapping the Dark."
Originally posted by ares834After Vader went tumbling down the stairs, Luke became "heady with his own power."
That from the book?
"And then another thought emerged... he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
He took one step forward."
Enter the passage about Vader's surprise and fear. Luke "towered" above Vader. But then the Emperor f*cks it all up by encouraging Luke, thus allowing for:
"His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity-gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
In that instant, Vader attacked."
He lowers his sword first, then after Vader attacks--he "bound the boys blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry."
Originally posted by Intrepid37
[B]It's from The Courtship of Princess Leia actually:Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield. So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?
Except exempts from the ROTJ seem to suggest otherwise.
Based on what?
Vader for a 8/10 majority.
😆 Darth Sidious would likely take Starkiller with an 8:10 ratio. No incarnation of Vader would be able to defeat Starkiller with an 8/10.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except exempts from the ROTJ seem to suggest otherwise.
How 'bout reading the text? Neithe has an advantage:
Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down - then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.
How about Vader being pleased with Luke's increase in speed?
Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet.
In the movie, Luke kicks Vader down the stairs with a kick. In the novel, Vader was taken by surprise:
So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places - or in the right places prematurely.
Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.
In the novel, Vader feels humiliation when he's on the ground after being kicked down the stairs:
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
He feels such humiliation because he was forced back and then fell down the stairs. In the movie, Luke got a good kick in, but there was no disparirity, and Vader could not possibly have thought of humiliation in the movie.
You're also aware that, when he forced Vader down the stairs, that he used the dark side, yes?
Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
You're also aware that, after being kicked down, he wants Luke to know it's not a game any longer, but darkness, right?
'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
You're aware that Luke thinks Vader won't kill him in the should he have the chance, yes?
Twice before, in fact - to Luke's recollection - Vader could have killed him, but didn't. In the dogfight over the first Death Star, and later in the lightsaber duel on Bespin. He thought of Leia, briefly now, too - of how Vader had had her in his clutches once, had even tortured her ... but didn't kill her. He winced to think of her agony, but quickly pushed that from his mind. The point was clear to him, now, though so often so murky: there was still good in his father
You're aware that, after Vader used saber-throw, that Luke is sure he would die in the same room?
Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn't know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.
The comic adaption of the fight also confirms they were equals:
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
😆 Darth Sidious would likely take Starkiller with an 8:10 ratio.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No incarnation of Vader would be able to defeat Starkiller with an 8/10.
Despite Vader collapsing cathedrals and throwing ships around, growing by a big amount between ANH and ESB and then growing again between ESB and RotJ?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Exempts contradicted by the movie and taken out of context?How 'bout reading the text? Neithe has an advantage:
Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down - then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.
How about Vader being pleased with Luke's increase in speed?
Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet.
In the movie, Luke kicks Vader down the stairs with a kick. In the novel, Vader was taken by surprise:
So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places - or in the right places prematurely.
Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.
In the novel, Vader feels humiliation when he's on the ground after being kicked down the stairs:
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
He feels such humiliation because he was forced back and then fell down the stairs. In the movie, Luke got a good kick in, but there was no disparirity, and Vader could not possibly have thought of humiliation in the movie.
You're also aware that, when he forced Vader down the stairs, that he used the dark side, yes?
Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? [b]His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma.
Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
You're also aware that, after being kicked down, he wants Luke to know it's not a game any longer, but darkness, right?
'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
You're aware that Luke thinks Vader won't kill him in the should he have the chance, yes?
Twice before, in fact - to Luke's recollection - Vader could have killed him, but didn't. In the dogfight over the first Death Star, and later in the lightsaber duel on Bespin. He thought of Leia, briefly now, too - of how Vader had had her in his clutches once, had even tortured her ... but didn't kill her. He winced to think of her agony, but quickly pushed that from his mind. The point was clear to him, now, though so often so murky: there was still good in his father
You're aware that, after Vader used saber-throw, that Luke is sure he would die in the same room?
Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn't know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.The comic adaption of the fight also confirms they were equals:
Some of this helps our argument. Our point is that the two of them were equals until Luke cuts off Vader's hand. So your theory that
Starkiller would get smashed 10/10 against Sidious.
This despite Starkiller having trouble in every duel? Gaining no sort of advantage against Paratus until he was crying? Being on the losing side to Shaak Ti? Fighting even with Kota until Kota had a vision? Fighting even with Maris Brood until he switched styles? Winning the first fight against Vader by throwing a generator on him? Winning the second fight against Vader because Vader was completely disinterested in fighting? Ignoring that ANH Vader was but a shadow of his former self?
Lol the video game shows Vader getting owned in a completely different way. And I think that takes precedence.
Despite Vader collapsing cathedrals and throwing ships around, growing by a big amount between ANH and ESB and then growing again between ESB and RotJ?
Skywalker has been able to collapse things like that as well, if I recall in LOE. Vader never got up to the level of his ROTS self again.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Our point is that the two of them were equals until Luke cuts off Vader's hand.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So your theory that
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol no.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol the video game shows Vader getting owned in a completely different way. And I think that takes precedence.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Skywalker has been able to collapse things like that as well, if I recall in LOE. Vader never got up to the level of his ROTS self again.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have only argued as much..?
huh
lol yes
They are of equal canon importance, but in the game, only the story and cutscenes are canon. Gameplay and game-mechanics are non-canon.
The quicktime events are also canon.
With a force scream, yes, but such power can't be compared to telekinesis. [/B]
Dude, how is a scream less impressive than TK?
