America & Sexism

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I would think it's because the former is often an example of females being portrayed negatively by males, whereas the latter is often an example of white males portraying their own group self-deprecatingly. And whereas there are a lot of people who believe that women are naturally more cowardly and weak willed than men (my two brothers, who are otherwise intelligent and well-educated people), I don't think anyone (aside from man-hating feminists, who btw are a very small group) actually believes that all or even most men are like Peter Griffin or Homer Simpson. The two things aren't really comparable.

Yes. Additionally It's also an issue of scale and representation. Damsel in distress is possibly the most prevalent trope women are characterized as in media (it's up there at least, the other prevalent ones aren't much better either though), fat white male husband is not.

If almost all media girls and women can experience shows them as weak and incapable that is obviously an issue.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I would think it's because the former is often an example of females being portrayed negatively by males, whereas the latter is often an example of white males portraying their own group self-deprecatingly. And whereas there are a lot of people who believe that women are naturally more cowardly and weak willed than men (my two brothers, who are otherwise intelligent and well-educated people), I don't think anyone (aside from man-hating feminists, who btw are a very small group) actually believes that all or even most men are like Peter Griffin or Homer Simpson. The two things aren't really comparable.

The one scene that my cinema appreciation professor highlighted as exemplifying the trope was from Goldfinger (or at least I think it was Goldfinger) where Bond's girl is so useless that she can't even pick up a gun--never mind shooting it, she can't even summon the courage and strength to pick it up--while Bond is struggling with a bad guy.

Originally posted by red g jacks
do your brothers look at women as if they're princess peach?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes. Additionally It's also an issue of scale and representation. Damsel in distress is possibly the most prevalent trope women are characterized as in media (it's up there at least, the other prevalent ones aren't much better either though), fat white male husband is not.

If almost all media girls and women can experience shows them as weak and incapable that is obviously an issue.

But how harmful is it?

Homer Simpson, despite all his faults, has been at various points an astronaut, a highly competent private security officer, a bodyguard for the mayor, a friend of a former president, a celebrity (multiple times, in various ways), and the manager of a country music singer, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Peter Griffin has similar triumphs. If anything that stereotype suggests that a stupid, bumbling, out of shape, uneducated boor can fly into success ass backward by virtue of being a white American male.

Originally posted by red g jacks
as far as american family sitcoms go, i think it's a fairly common theme.

I don't believe that's true, there's a fair amount of sitcoms I can think of that have capable or not fat fathers

That 70s Show
Everybody Loves Raymond
The Wonder Years
Roseanne
Modern Family
Two and a Half Man

The only one with the fat lazy good for nothing dad I can think of is All in the Family. And I guess there are Family Guy and Simpsons (cartoons, not sitcoms, but sitcomy I suppose).

And regardless of it not being true, it is a slice of a slice of media, not something being used absolutely everywhere.

Malcolm in the Middle--the dad was bumbling but (mostly) physically fit, loving, caring, and unless he happened to be the target of a vicious subplot where he got obsessed about some picayune matter, generally intelligent, at least as sitcom fathers go.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Malcolm in the Middle--the dad was bumbling but (mostly) physically fit, loving, caring, and unless he happened to be the target of a vicious subplot where he got obsessed about some picayune matter, generally intelligent, at least as sitcom fathers go.

If we talk about bumbling, slap-sticky dads, sure, that's prevalent in sitcoms. Not necessarily a negative stereotype as you are pointing out though.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I mean, they don't think women are 16 bit video game characters who get kidnapped by turtledragons, but yes.

if your brothers really do project that much weakness onto women then fair enough. i don't think most men think that way though.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
But how harmful is it?

Homer Simpson, despite all his faults, has been at various points an astronaut, a highly competent private security officer, a bodyguard for the mayor, a friend of a former president, a celebrity (multiple times, in various ways), and the manager of a country music singer, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Peter Griffin has similar triumphs. If anything that stereotype suggests that a stupid, bumbling, out of shape, uneducated boor can fly into success ass backward by virtue of being a white American male.

i don't think it's harmful. how harmful is mario?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't believe that's true, there's a fair amount of sitcoms I can think of that have capable or not fat fathers

That 70s Show
Everybody Loves Raymond
The Wonder Years
Roseanne
Modern Family
Two and a Half Man

The only one with the fat lazy good for nothing dad I can think of is All in the Family. And I guess there are Family Guy and Simpsons (cartoons, not sitcoms, but sitcomy I suppose).

And regardless of it not being true, it is a slice of a slice of media, not something being used absolutely everywhere.

Originally posted by red g jacks

fair enough, but i said fairly common, not universal. is this any different from the youtubers who rebutted anita by listing off a bunch of games with female protagonists?

Yes, for two reasons:

1) I had a second point

2) you'll hardly be able to name as many family sitcoms with fat, lazy, incapable dads as I named without them here, while I can match any game with a female protagonist at least tenfold with a game featuring a damsel in distress

you mean the 6 shows you listed before? i'm pretty sure i can beat that record if you really want me to. is this just a numbers game though? how persistent does a media trend need to be in order to become a serious issue?

Originally posted by red g jacks
you mean the 6 shows you listed before? i'm pretty sure i can beat that record if you really want me to. is this just a numbers game though? how persistent does a media trend need to be in order to become a serious issue?

Again, it's not just a number game, but the number game is part of why one is an issue and the other isn't. I feel like this has been discussed sufficiently now, by both Omega Vision and me.

And a first hurdle to jump would be "does it negatively affect anyone", which the fat, lazy father trope doesn't really. Once that hurdle is jumped we can talk about shades of grey perhaps.

i agree that the fat lazy husband trope is harmless. i just don't understand the damage that the damsel trope in video games is doing to women.

maybe i was wrong to equate them because one is much more ubiquitous. they just both seem sort of petty because i doubt the amount of influence they're actually having on their audience.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i agree that the fat lazy husband trope is harmless. i just don't understand the damage that the damsel trope in video games is doing to women.

maybe i was wrong to equate them because one is much more ubiquitous. they just both seem sort of petty because i doubt the amount of influence they're actually having on their audience.

Well, that is hard to quantify of course. I do think Anita's argument that the media we are exposed to influence our beliefs and even our abilities, is correct, however. And I think we can find evidence of this in history and in studies investigating similar claims.

At any rate, it's a lazy trope and shows creative confinement, and we should apply it much less.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Malcolm in the Middle--the dad was bumbling but (mostly) physically fit, loving, caring, and unless he happened to be the target of a vicious subplot where he got obsessed about some picayune matter, generally intelligent, at least as sitcom fathers go.

Hal was batshit crazy. He was vengeful (childishly so) and petty with everything. He is one of the last people I would pick for a halfway decent father on a sitcom.

A "good father" stereotype would be "Frank" from "Step-by-Step".

Or Jason Seaver from Family Ties (Alan Thicke). Those were supposed to be "pretty dang good dad" stereotypes.

Phil from Modern Family > all.

Plus, he's not made out to be a complete idiot, and actually gets his fair share, so Claire isn't always shown as being superior.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I do think Anita's argument that the media we are exposed to influence our beliefs and even our abilities, is correct, however. And I think we can find evidence of this in history and in studies investigating similar claims.

At any rate, it's a lazy trope and shows creative confinement, and we should apply it much less.

Originally posted by red g jacks
see, what gets me about that is that we all instantly know it's ridiculous to think that watching the simpsons (or king of queens/family guy/married with children/whatever) is either going to affect a man's abilities or a woman's perception of her husband and his abilities. yet when it comes to the damsel in distress women are actually disempowered by being exposed to this trope? i'd like to hear a practical example of how that can happen.

But you must see how that is different, yes? There is no long history of white men being viewed as inferior, incapable or stupid. Our cultrue does not think men are that way, on the contrary it ascribes the opposite traits to them. These things are harmless because they are isolated incidents, that no one would ever believe, and because there is a plethora of other media that counteracts the stereotype. This is not the case for women.

You are comparing, "Ugh, today a bird pooped on my shoulder, what a mildly annoying occurrence." to "Ugh, every minute, of every day for the last thirty years birds have pooped all over me, I'm can't take it anymore"

tbh, this is sort of the point, you can hardly conceive of it being an issue....because to you it's not an issue, you are not underrepresented in media.

Does this count as a revival? The sub-board isn't very high activity...

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you must see how that is different, yes? There is no long history of white men being viewed as inferior, incapable or stupid. Our cultrue does not think men are that way, on the contrary it ascribes the opposite traits to them. These things are harmless because they are isolated incidents, that no one would ever believe, and because there is a plethora of other media that counteracts the stereotype. This is not the case for women.

You are comparing, "Ugh, today a bird pooped on my shoulder, what a mildly annoying occurrence." to "Ugh, every minute, of every day for the last thirty years birds have pooped all over me, I'm can't take it anymore"

tbh, this is sort of the point, you can hardly conceive of it being an issue....because to you it's not an issue, you are not underrepresented in media.

To add to this point, there's a difference between relatively harmless forms of discrimination and the type that actually indicates or even instigates serious societal biases and oppression.

If you're a male, you belong to the gender that controls the vast majority of America's economic and political capital. When's the last time a group with the majority of power has been justified in claiming oppression? Barring specific, special exceptions, you really can't complain about some sort "matriarchy" when you're more powerful than the supposed members of this imaginary power group.

It's like complaining about being rich - sure, there are some unfair stereotypes we lob at rich folk, but on balance, you can't complain about having to endure higher income taxes when you still end up with the bigger paycheck than everybody else.

Similarly, I don't complain about having been born in a wealthy, first class nation any more than I complain about being male. Do Americans receive unfair criticisms about being fat, lazy, stupid? Sure? Do first world nations in general typically suffer from stereotypes that third world nations do not? Sure. But since we all have it infinitely better off than the vast majority of people around the world...it's just petty to ***** and complain about it.

Originally posted by Master Han
If you're a male, you belong to the gender that controls the vast majority of America's economic and political capital. When's the last time a group with the majority of [b]power has been justified in claiming oppression? Barring specific, special exceptions, you really can't complain about some sort "matriarchy" when you're more powerful than the supposed members of this imaginary power group.[/B]

You'd be stupid to complain of a "matriarchy" but not of damaging social pressures. Social expectation kills men of all ages. Teenage girls die of anorexia and such sure but men are expected to engage in dangerous work that shortens their lives and damages their physical and mental health. Go look at the number of men who die in war, who die as police officers, who die as firemen, who die as factory workers. Few women are endanged by having these jobs. This is a patriarchal issue (men must be strong, women must be frail) not a matriarchal one but men should still point out that it's a problem because the gender bias in hiring annoys women but it is killing men.