America & Sexism

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You'd be stupid to complain of a "matriarchy" but not of damaging social pressures. Social expectation [b]kills men of all ages. Teenage girls die of anorexia and such sure but men are expected to engage in dangerous work that shortens their lives and damages their physical and mental health. Go look at the number of men who die in war, who die as police officers, who die as firemen, who die as factory workers. Few women are endanged by having these jobs. This is a patriarchal issue (men must be strong, women must be frail) not a matriarchal one but men should still point out that it's a problem because the gender bias in hiring annoys women but it is killing men. [/B]

My point being that this discrimination has lessened as a result of feminism. Meanwhile, MRAs have done less to support their cause than their apparent arch-enemies have ironically accomplished.

I think it's a bit different for gender than for say race. Because men actually do have a rather severe disadvantage in the way their emotional development is stunted, while say, being white has only upsides really. The issue being that it's not men who oppress women, but patriarchy that oppresses women.

Originally posted by Master Han
My point being that this discrimination has lessened as a result of feminism. Meanwhile, MRAs have done less to support their cause than their apparent arch-enemies have ironically accomplished.

I agree that feminism has done a great deal to lessen this problem (and MRAs typically want to make it worse) however I think its worth emphasizing that this harm is quite significant and real. Yes, society gives me advantages, there is no denying that, but society my also expects me to endanger my life in all sorts of ways in order to fulfill its vision of masculinity. There were no girlfriends who leaped to cover their boyfriends during the Aurora shooting.

Feminism (and modern social theory in general) is what has given us the ability to recognize and talk about this. I do find, however, that because of backlash against MRA types and a feeling of defensiveness by feminists its impossible to really have a conversation about that problem. People are understandably unwilling to talk about something that they think could weaken their rhetorical position simply by acknowledging. It's the "give an inch and they take a mile" mindset.

Well, to be fair, men in general are physical stronger than women, so it's logical to expect them to do more in situations involving physical danger.

Of course, the problem that always pisses me off with hasty generalizations as a whole is that it inevitably screws over exceptional people via guilt by association, because the same general principle should not apply with, say, a woman MMA fighter and a 140 pound man.

Originally posted by Master Han
Well, to be fair, men in general are physical stronger than women, so it's logical to expect them to do more in situations involving physical danger.

"God made man, Colt made them equal"

The human capacity for for violence is no longer limited by physical ability nor are all men in these positions required to be in amazing physical condition. This isn't special forces. This is being a grunt in the military or working as a cop.

Now there are areas, firefighting is a good example, where men will perform the most dangerous jobs for the foreseeable future. These are fields where there are clear physical requirements. More men than women will be able to complete an obstacle course with 200 pounds on their back. These still aren't immune to the effects of culture, though. Machoism produces risky behavior in people who ought to know better.

^true, and I later point out that molding society around generalizations like "most men are stronger than most women, and will do better in most danger situations" are antithetical to the concepts of individualism and equal opportunity.

Still, I'd take having to carry a woman's luggage over making less money any day.

Or the catcalling, the disproportionate number of sexual assaults, the insane beauty standards, the lack of representation in most media.

But Blax is somewhat right, that I guess it depends where you set your priorities. As Sym said men do die because of the expectations of their gender as well (dangerous jobs, war, suicide)

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think it's a bit different for gender than for say race. Because men actually do have a rather severe disadvantage in the way their emotional development is stunted, while say, being white has only upsides really.

not saying it isn't a privilege to be white in general... but i can think of some scenarios where it had its downsides

Originally posted by red g jacks
that depends on what kind of neighborhood you live in/school you go to/etc.

not saying it isn't a privilege to be white in general... but i can think of some scenarios where it had its downsides

Well, I guess, for example if you got killed for being white, which can happen, I suppose, being white didn't work out for you.

Originally posted by Master Han
Still, I'd take having to carry a woman's luggage over making less money any day.

Would you trade "having people be protective toward you" for "being killed"? Of course not, that example is trivializing and dismissive. I'm not talking about issues of social interaction. My point is that men are told that to be a man they must do things that actually cause them a great deal of harm.

My father once collapsed from stress doing a white collar job he hated, partly because the expectation is that a man will work has hard as he has to in order to provide the best life for his family or be a failure. Many fathers have little time for family life for the same reason.

Soldiers are shot and killed and almost all of them are men. Industrial workers die in accidents.

Teenage boys do stupid dangerous things and we write it off as a natural part of male youth. Should we? History shows us lots of example of wrongly assuming something is totally acultural. There was a time when fainting was a natural biological thing that happened to women, these days its mostly unheard of.

We can turn the eye of social analysis on any group.

Men don't need lobbyists for enfranchisement or political representation or reproductive rights or equal pay or representation in popular culture. They do still feel the impact of their culture, they can still be harmed by it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I guess, for example if you got killed for being white, which can happen, I suppose, being white didn't work out for you.

but for a more general example in the schools i went to it singled you out as an easy target for theft & bullying.