Originally posted by comicfan11So you rule out that Scavenger could be using a decommissioned model submarine in a comic... even though we have a clear example of a comics Russian navy using a decommissioned model? What is your certainty based on, exactly?
I disagree.In the Colossus feat a model is given (there's no disputing it's weight). You can blame the writers for using an older model but not dispute the facts.
Originally posted by comicfan11So this is what your certainty is based on? You are completely generalizing what pre-Flashpoint Scavenger did and projecting that onto post-Flashpoint Scavenger. Which, in turn, allows you to assume there are only RL modern submarine models that could have been used in this fictional comic... despite no model actually being provided.
But why should I assume that Scavenger (a high tech character, and one of DC's most well known pirates) would use anything less than the highest tech available at the time?. All through his continuity, that's what he does. His MO is using high tech to gain any advantage and having the tech advantage over his opponents.
All whilst completely ignoring that the submarine looked like a rusty pile of junk on-panel and the possibility that a character whose name is "Scavenger" might find it easier to scavenge decommissioned submarines and repurpose them instead of engaging the modern Russian Navy and stealing their modern in-use submarines.
Originally posted by comicfan11Pretty sure that's exactly what the comic did when it depicted a rusty piece of junk.
The comic would specify an "old" sub if that was the case.
Originally posted by comicfan11Your begging the question fallacy is duly noted and dismissed. And I find your question to be outrageously disingenuous considering your earlier comments about Ultimate Colossus dealing with an unspecified "generic undefined comic submarine design." For someone who so quickly lays immense scrutiny on feats depicting random vehicles, it says a lot that you can't possibly countenance that the one used in Aquaman #21 just might be a generic fictional one that doesn't even have a RL counterpart.
Should I assume that every time I don't see a model in a currently used vehicle, that it's something decommissioned at the time of publication? Or that it's something commonly used at that time?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Aquaman's feat was very impressive, but not because of the size of the Submarine, but because he tosses it out of the ocean as he did.The Submarine Colossus lifted was obviously much larger then the one Aquaman encountered based on what I remember.
Then you have to think about the fact that he had to carry his own weight and prevent himself from sinking because of his Iron hide (while carrying the sub). His ft was more difficult imo...especially with the distance and weight of the sub.
To answer both Nib and ODG.
Scavenger is (and always was) a high tech arms dealer. That much is mentioned in the current continuity also (I believe by Waller, Scavenger is hunting for high tech Atlantean weaponry and is selling it).
He specializes and uses the best available resources.
I already said no model is given, but it is a nuke russ sub. That much is specified (no mention of experimental, unique factor to the sub provided)
It makes more sense to go for one of the already existing available imo, since Johns specifies when a vehicle is unique (example the Operatives plane, the Living Room which is specifically described as better than a normal cargo ship, although it looks normal).
Plus ODG when people mentioned the Colossus feat and I questioned it, NO info was given for the sub. You were the first one to specify a model, to which point I gladly provided specifics to measure the feat.
As for the writer's f@ck up in the Colossus issue, you have a point (they should do better than use a decommissioned sub) but facts are facts. Don't change what Colossus lifted.
Originally posted by comicfan11
To answer both Nib and ODG.Scavenger is (and always was) a high tech arms dealer. That much is mentioned in the current continuity also (I believe by Waller, Scavenger is hunting for high tech Atlantean weaponry and is selling it).
He specializes and uses the best available resources.I already said no model is given, but it is a nuke russ sub. That much is specified (no mention of experimental, unique factor to the sub provided)
It makes more sense to go for one of the already existing available imo, since Johns specifies when a vehicle is unique (example the Operatives plane, the Living Room which is specifically described as better than a normal cargo ship, although it looks normal).
Plus ODG when people mentioned the Colossus feat and I questioned it, NO info was given for the sub. You were the first one to specify a model, to which point I gladly provided specifics to measure the feat.
As for the writer's f@ck up in the Colossus issue, you have a point (they should do better than use a decommissioned sub) but facts are facts. Don't change what Colossus lifted.
But that's the problem. No model/class was given. Also, the artwork disagrees with your assumption as the sub looks no more than a hundred feet or so. There is no going around this outside of claiming that "the artwork is wrong", sadly, you do NOT have enough evidence via the narrative/statements provided to overturn the art-provided size, thus this line of reasoning would fall flat on its face.
Especially when the assumption of "it is a generic fictional Russian sub model" explains things pretty conclusively. Generic fictional subs don't have to be unique or experimental or any such thing. It could just as much be a common generic sub that exists only in this specific fictional world.
Originally posted by comicfan11What we do know is that he seeks out high tech Atlantean weaponry. Not that he seeks out high tech RL Russian weaponry and demands only the best in functional RL weaponry to find the high tech Atlantean weaponry. Let us not ignore the gaps in logic and outright assumptions you are making here.
To answer both Nib and ODG.Scavenger is (and always was) a high tech arms dealer. That much is mentioned in the current continuity also (I believe by Waller, Scavenger is hunting for high tech Atlantean weaponry and is selling it).
He specializes and uses the best available resources.
Originally posted by comicfan11It's a fictional nuclear Russian sub... with no known RL counterpart. To be more specific.
I already said no model is given, but it is a nuke russ sub. That much is specified (no mention of experimental, unique factor to the sub provided)
Originally posted by comicfan11The Operative's plane has absolutely no bearing on Scavenger's scavenged fleet of submarines.
It makes more sense to go for one of the already existing available imo, since Johns specifies when a vehicle is unique (example the Operatives plane, the Living Room which is specifically described as better than a normal cargo ship, although it looks normal).
Originally posted by comicfan11Yet somehow, the outright need for specifics you exhibited is now being completely glossed over when it comes to Aquaman. All you needed to know is that it's Russian. And from there, you automatically assume 1) it is a modern Russian sub instead of a scavenged one, and 2) it actually has a RL counterpart rather than just being a "generic undefined comic submarine design."
Plus ODG when people mentioned the Colossus feat and I questioned it, NO info was given for the sub. You were the first one to specify a model, to which point I gladly provided specifics to measure the feat.
Originally posted by comicfan11I'm not changing what Colossus lifted. I'm just telling you that when a fictional Russian navy uses an old-a$$ submarine (that looked brand new) that should have been decommissioned 11 years earlier... you shouldn't outright dismiss the notion that a fictional comic character, Scavenger, might use an old-a$$ submarine (that looked like a rusty piece of junk) that could have been decommissioned and subsequently scavenged... by the Scavenger.
As for the writer's f@ck up in the Colossus issue, you have a point (they should do better than use a decommissioned sub) but facts are facts. Don't change what Colossus lifted.
.................
Dude, I just gotta post this quote:
Originally posted by comicfan11
I'm not disputing Colossus, but do you have any specifics for his sub feat?
Is there anything specific mention about it or is it just "generic undefined comic submarine design"?
How is it that you had no trouble coming up with this line of logic yet find it downright difficult to accept our line of thinking when it just simply parallels your own?
OK I understand your point (both nib and ODG)
I'm not here to invent feats, that's a job other posters are much more competent at.
I will give you this it might as well be an older model (still it ranges around from about 4000 tons to 48000 tons)
But I will not concede that it is a defacto fictional model, since Johns usually mentions things like this (I believe he did the same with the invisible cargo plane in current JLA). It could very well be, but there is no conclusive proof of that whatsoever.
We only know nuclear russ sub for fact.
And when I mentioned the Colossus feat, Nib, I gave numbers for existing subs, even before the model was known. I meant generic comic book subs based on real models. In other words when I gave the numbers I used ALL REAL LIFE NUC SUBS number. Not subs invented for the comic, but all subs available at the time of publication.
However I will not concede to every piece of technology not translating exactly to real life counterparts if the artwork is off, when a description is given.
Originally posted by comicfan11
OK I understand your point (both nib and ODG)I'm not here to invent feats, that's a job other posters are much more competent at.
I will give you this it might as well be an older model (still it ranges around from about 4000 tons to 48000 tons)
But I will not concede that it is a defacto fictional model, since Johns usually mentions things like this (I believe he did the same with the invisible cargo plane in current JLA). It could very well be, but there is no conclusive proof of that whatsoever.
We only know nuclear russ sub for fact.
And when I mentioned the Colossus feat, Nib, I gave numbers for existing subs, even before the model was known. I meant generic comic book subs based on real models. In other words when I gave the numbers I used ALL REAL LIFE NUC SUBS number. Not subs invented for the comic, but all subs available at the time of publication.
However I will not concede to every piece of technology not translating exactly to real life counterparts if the artwork is off, when a description is given.
Breaking it down:
You have as much proof as we do on whether it is based on RL models or a fictional one.
Your only theory of its possible measurements is your opinion based off of vague statements taken along with a writer's average writing style which may or may not even take this into consideration.
Our theory of its measurements come from the artwork itself, w/c is clear, defined and pretty conclusive.
Now you are free to stick with your opinion and disregard the pretty clear and conclusive art, but at this point, as I'm sure there will be no convincing you no matter what reasoning we provide, I guess we should just let the other readers decide.
Originally posted by comicfan11This writer generalization angle is even flimsier than assuming that pre-Flashpoint Scavenger proclivities (which I haven't even seen scans for) are exactly the same post-Flashpoint. I'm not sure it merits more than complete dismissal outright.
OK I understand your point (both nib and ODG)I'm not here to invent feats, that's a job other posters are much more competent at.
I will give you this it might as well be an older model (still it ranges around from about 4000 tons to 48000 tons)
But I will not concede that it is a defacto fictional model, since Johns usually mentions things like this (I believe he did the same with the invisible cargo plane in current JLA). It could very well be, but there is no conclusive proof of that whatsoever.
Originally posted by comicfan11We only know that it is a fictional nuclear russ sub for fact with no known RL counterpart.
We only know nuclear russ sub for fact.
Originally posted by comicfan11The only description given is basically a "generic undefined comic submarine design." The fact that it is a fictional Russian submarine does not mean it actually has a RL counterpart. If you really want to micro-analyze this whole Russian angle, you should be bearing down on what was said and depicted in the comics:
And when I mentioned the Colossus feat, Nib, I gave numbers for existing subs, even before the model was known. I meant generic comic book subs based on real models. In other words when I gave the numbers I used ALL REAL LIFE NUC SUBS number. Not subs invented for the comic, but all subs available at the time of publication.However I will not concede to every piece of technology not translating exactly to real life counterparts if the artwork is off, when a description is given.
Fact #1: Aquaman stated that Scavenger operated out of a Russian nuclear submarine.
Fact #2: Aquaman specifically asked Topo for help because Topo could restrain that nuclear submarine.
Fact #3: Aquaman never actually tracked down Scavenger's submarine.
Fact #4: Aquaman easily dealt with the submarine he did find.
Fact #5: The submarine Aquaman did deal with looked like a small rusty piece of junk.
Fact #6: Scavenger apparently has a whole fleet of submarines.
Fact #7: We don't know for sure that every submarine in his fleet is a Russian nuclear submarine.
So even though Aquaman never actually found Scavenger's Russian nuclear submarine (that he asked Topo for help with), somehow we are to conclude that the junky-looking sub he easily dealt with on his own was a modern Russian nuclear submarine... because we assume Scavenger's entire submarine fleet is composed of Russian nuclear submarines, and modern ones to boot.
Y'know, if that's the case, than Scavenger basically stole every single active Russian nuclear submarine based on that final page shot in Aquaman #21 where we see at least 20 submarines. Because... y'know... RL Russia's active nuclear submarine fleet doesn't number beyond a couple dozen currently.
To answer to both of you guys since I don't want to drag this thread to 30+ pages.
As you said neither you nor me can prove it's a fictional Russian sub. At this point I don't really care for specifics just that AQ lifted and tossed it out of the water, which puts him to to the 100 ton class (again based on ALL existing nuclear sub models).
I don't believe anyone can dispute at least that.
I reserve my opinion that it's based on an existing model and you are correct in assuming I'm not going to change my opinion unless a fictional model is specified.
And I will conclude with the simple fact that this is not even AQ's best strength feat in the Nu 52, since he already lifted the ocean liner in JL #9 (or #10 but I believe it was #9).
There's no point in continuing to debate this issue, since I will not accept your conclusion and you won't accept mine.
Still going with AQ for the majority due to similar (though I believe the ocean liner feat puts AQ clearly ahead of C) strength, better speed & leaping and the trident.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I'll let someone else answer that. From what I know, Ult Colossus is a juiced up version of his 616 counterpart so he should be written as far stronger than 616 Colossus. But my knowledge of either character is not nearly as comprehensive as the ppl here. 🙂
THX man.
I usually don't like it when alt characters are stronger than the normal (unless it's something completely different like KC Supes who was older for example).
Still makes sense since I would think this feat might be too much for reg Colossus, but the juiced up thing makes it logical for the ult Colossus.
Cheers
Originally posted by comicfan11We don't have to prove negatives. But the plain fact of the matter is this: the only fact we do know is that Aquaman tossed a fictional submarine. We're not even sure it's a Russian submarine, because it wasn't actually Scavenger's personal submarine that Aquaman had described to Topo earlier and wanted assistance disabling with.
To answer to both of you guys since I don't want to drag this thread to 30+ pages.As you said neither you nor me can prove it's a fictional Russian sub. At this point I don't really care for specifics just that AQ lifted and tossed it out of the water, which puts him to to the 100 ton class (again based on ALL existing nuclear sub models).
Originally posted by comicfan11Yea, we can dispute that. I never bothered to in the first place because frankly, nobody cares to micro-analyze this feat... at least until someone makes a claim that the submarine had to have at least weighed 7100-48000 tons.
I don't believe anyone can dispute at least that.
Originally posted by comicfan11So long as you know exactly how flimsy your extremely specific conclusion is based on what confirmed facts we do know... some of which actually contradict your conclusion, e.g., it's a small junky-looking sub.
I reserve my opinion that it's based on an existing model and you are correct in assuming I'm not going to change my opinion unless a fictional model is specified.And I will conclude with the simple fact that this is not even AQ's best strength feat in the Nu 52, since he already lifted the ocean liner in JL #9 (or #10 but I believe it was #9).
There's no point in continuing to debate this issue, since I will not accept your conclusion and you won't accept mine.
Originally posted by comicfan11Yeah, I don't see Aquaman stopping a speeding freight train with multiple cars with his bare hands. I personally find that more impressive.
Still going with AQ for the majority due to similar (though I believe the ocean liner feat puts AQ clearly ahead of C) strength, better speed & leaping and the trident.Cheers.
Originally posted by comicfan11Based on your avy, I'm not at all surprised. 👆
Good we agree to disagree then and I'm fully content with my conclusions.As for the freight train, Hogun did it with a mace so I certainly see AQ replicating that feat, and still believe the ocean liner as more impressive.
Cheers
Colossus didn't have a magical mace, he used his bare hands. As for the ocean liner, I saw Sasquatch do it casually so I certainly see Ultimate Colossus replicating that feat, and still believe the barehanding of a speeding freight train as more impressive.
To each his own though.
Originally posted by NibedicusThat's the last thing we should be doing. Especially after this tedious trainwreck of a conversation.
Anyone got scans on both the luxury liner and the freight train? Maybe we can too some h1-nese computations in and determine actual forces involved? 🙂