HOTM Hulk VS Superboy Prime

Originally posted by curryman
Only Wendigo is low herald out of these.

The time Hulk has fought and struggled with Abom and Bi-Beast he's been far from a herald-level character. Please go by their Tier list rankings or use their names.

I'll gladly make a long ass case against Abomination and Bi-Beast being low herald if you really wanna step to that and take it to the BZ or something 😛

I don't need a recap of the story either, thank you. I remember clearly what happened 🙂

So we go by Umar's overall feats and by the Nameless Ones' feats only in that arc.

I disagree with this.

That would be like saying the weaker drones in Annihilation Conquest are herald level because they were threatening the High Evolutionary.

Are you HONESTLY putting down Prime's feat against Hal and Gardner because he didn't kill them? There is absolutely no denying that Guy stood no chance in hell against Prime. It was one grab against Guy and one grab+twist against Hal.

Those are legit mid and high heralds. Not pretend ones 🙂

Without even getting into the whole idea of how ridiculous it is to expect Prime to off-hand kill characters with decades of years worth of comics and ongoing mother****ing series, as opposed to Hulk's washed out villains (who have each be killed many times

Well, to be honest, I do think you have a rather low opinion of Hulk, and that's not meant as an insult at all. He does have low feats, but Hulk fighting evenly with Abomination or Bi-Beast doesn't somehow make them weaker or Hulk weaker. And I'm unsure why when he did fight them he wasn't at low herald levels? Tier list is by far a perfect categorization and is still in the process of being revamped, so no, I don't take it as the gospel. Still, even at his weakest overall, Savage Hulk was consistently described as one of, if not the, strongest being on Earth with potential to grow even stronger. Abomination and others being competitive foes to him doesn't take away from that. I don't care enough about the subject to Battlezone them being low heralds, though, to be honest, as it was clear that by the time of HotM, they were definitely at that level unamped, let alone while amped.

I think it only makes sense to judge the Mindless Ones by what they were doing in the arc where we specifically cite how Hulk treated them. Purposefully finding lower end showings of the Mindless Ones under a different writer and then arguing that what Hulk did is inferior because of that isn't any better than using Savage Hulk's low feats to project onto HotM Hulk. Considering Mindless Ones are "generics" and can have different power levels and properties depending on who summons them or where they are used, it's best to take them by a case by case basis. Doom's Mindless Ones he sicced on the Fantastic Four aren't the same level as the Mindless Ones he sicced on the Mighty Avengers who aren't the same ones Hulk battles years ago who aren't the same ones depicted under Pak. I mean, I suppose one could try to use the Mindless Ones low showings as evidence, but to me, it would just seem like an attempt to discredit what Hulk did.

No? 😬 I'm fully away that Prime was beyond Hal and Guy and were royally screwed, but the initial point was that Prime slayed legions of no name and generally featless Lanterns, generic fodder in the same sense of the Mindless Ones, but the Mindless Ones being discussed here actually had feats and a threat level well established by the writer.

I have no doubt that Wendigo and the others were at least low herald by the time they were amped and subsequently erased by Hulk. I also don't doubt the Mindless Ones were similarly tiered.

Prime doesn't have to kill established characters to know that he possesses the ability to do so and that's not my argument to begin with. Same applies to Hulk. That said, the details in how Hulk destroyed his enemies, without even trying to do so and in a very indirect manner, is, well, incredible to use the pun. Hulk's enemies being unpopular doesn't take away from that.

Originally posted by carver9
Abomination wasn't in the Dark dimension...it was Armageddon and he can easily be marked as a high Herald. The guy simultaneously took out both Surfer and Merged Hulk.

http://s287.photobucket.com/user/kingaholu/media/Hulk%20feats/ArmcheddoneasilyhandlingprofHulk1.jpg.html
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/Armcheddoneasilyhandlingprofhulk2.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Hulk%20feats/ArmcheddoneasilyhandlingprofHUlk4.jpg
http://s287.photobucket.com/user/kingaholu/media/Hulk%20feats/AmrcheddonreleasesProfHulk.jpg.html

Ah, okay, my mistake.

Originally posted by curryman
Pointless hyperbole because he's fighting Ironclad by the ****ing crossroad's portal nexus.

And it was a shared feat.

And the surrounding u-foes were practically unphased and they were standing RIGHT NEXT TO HULK AND IRONCLAD.

I don't see how that's relevant.

One of those U-Foes, Vector, had become so powerful that he was able to affect the fabric of reality itself. The other 2(Vapor and X-Ray) aren't even tangible beings. Somehow, this means that this is an important bit of context that lessens the feat from what it is.

Originally posted by curryman

It's easy. Don't talk to me unless you're going to contribute to what we're discussing, or I'll ignore you.

Now you're lying, plain and simple. I never claimed that Prime wins easy. This is a lie.

I'm also very impressed by his lack of low feats in that one arc.

It appears it was Magnon who made the original comment, but you agreed with the sentiment. It's an honest mistake, not me making stuff up, not to mention that I am partially correct anyways.

Good for you then.

Originally posted by curryman

Okay, then I suggest you actually try to bring a feat of someone doing that.

As opposed to Hulk and Ironclad hitting eachother besides the a nexus of portals.

Originally posted by curryman

Time to stop lying now.

The middle-ground helps us establish an average level.

Yup. And Prime's average is not above HotM Hulk's.

Originally posted by curryman

Never said that low feats negate high end ones.

Probably the killing of a guardian or surviving a universal explosion.

He didn't kill the guardian. I could have chalked this upto you straight up lying, but unlike you I understand that sh1t happens.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just like all the other times Hulk's HF has been beaten out of him. Its not the first time it happened. This time it took a skyfather to do so. I ask again where is the scan of Hephaestus stating that his HF was compromised because of lightning?

Dimensions weren't broken by those shockwaves bro. All we saw were a few mountain tops breaking and that's it.

The pouring of the energy was a chain reaction going by that scan not the destruction. Its been a long time since I read that fight.

They were shaken up pretty badly and untold cataclysmic destruction was caused.

That energy is also a destructive force, per that scan. If it spreads out gradually across the universe, then the destruction it causes also spreads out gradually across the universe. As simple as that. Anyways, I don't see the logic behind claiming that destruction can't be chain reaction type, unless you want to pull out another "It's comics bro" reply. In which case, all I have to say is this: sudhar jaa. 13

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
When before has his healing factor been "beaten" out of him?

Anyways, I don't see the logic behind claiming that destruction can't be chain reaction type, unless you want to pull out another "It's comics bro" reply.[quote] How do you cause a chain reaction in two non-connected beings like two planets and stars? [quote]In which case, all I have to say is this: sudhar jaa. 13

uhuh

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
snip

Okay, this is a bit much to go over all of it.

If I read it correctly the essence of your argument is that the impressive part was how Hulk defeated them and not who it was. I agree with this.

My problem with the low herald ranking of Abomination and Bi Beast is this;

Abomination is stronger than base Hulk and about as durable, with a much weaker healing factor. That puts him in the 160 ton range. What about Bi-Beast? Was he even stronger than base Hulk?

When you look at the bricks who populate the low herald tier you see people like Apollo, Hercules, Kalibak, Invincible, Drax, Lunatik, Mongul. People with ton of feats into the thousand ton range.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants moving them up when you have Namor, Ulik, Maul, MARY MARVEL, Blastaar (!!!!), Pitt, Sasquatch and hell, even War Machine in high meta. The only thing these two guys have going for them is strength and they're still outclassed by almost a dozen guys who are in high meta.

I dare say that is a very accurate place for them to be.

You feel that they should be moved up by virtue of fighting the Hulk? Why? Base Hulk from the 70s wouldn't be in the herald tier either. Hanging with him for a few issues until he gets angry and completely trounces them does not warrant a bump up. I know that you have laws here on KMC that prevent us from bringing up Base-Hulk (even though that concept's been going on for 40 years now) because the current one has a higher base. That doesn't change the fact that these guys could only compete with Savage Hulk back when he actually DID HAVE A LOW BASE.

When they were amped? Maybe. Wendigo is already in low herald and it suits him, tho he's hardly the top-dog there.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Several times.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Did he stated that or are you just mashing two things together? Let me see the scan.

And just prior to Hulk's torment, look at the type of hits that Zeus is landing on him:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/5863063/Incredible_Hulks_622_009.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/5863064/Incredible_Hulks_622_010.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/5863170/Incredible_Hulks_622_013.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/5863174/Incredible_Hulks_622_016.jpg.html
All of them involve lightning charged punches. 2+2=?

Originally posted by abhilegend

Narration said that. A skeleton survived those shockwaves too.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/sp/9e8fd5c834333e5077d02fc9b14128bb/MindlessHulkShockwave02305.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yeah it is. Except prime would take the whole energy even then as he was at the epicenter of the blast and would've been swept away by the blast. Yeah, simple.

Originally posted by abhilegend

How do you cause a chain reaction in two non-connected beings like two planets and stars?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Abe tu sudhar ja.

uhuh

Originally posted by curryman
Okay, this is a bit much to go over all of it.

If I read it correctly the essence of your argument is that the impressive part was how Hulk defeated them and not who it was. I agree with this.

My problem with the low herald ranking of Abomination and Bi Beast is this;

Abomination is stronger than base Hulk and about as durable, with a much weaker healing factor. That puts him in the 160 ton range. What about Bi-Beast? Was he even stronger than base Hulk?

When you look at the bricks who populate the low herald tier you see people like Apollo, Hercules, Kalibak, Invincible, Drax, Lunatik, Mongul. People with ton of feats into the thousand ton range.

There is absolutely nothing that warrants moving them up when you have Namor, Ulik, Maul, MARY MARVEL, Blastaar (!!!!), Pitt, Sasquatch and hell, even War Machine in high meta. The only thing these two guys have going for them is strength and they're still outclassed by almost a dozen guys who are in high meta.

I dare say that is a very accurate place for them to be.

You feel that they should be moved up by virtue of fighting the Hulk? Why? Base Hulk from the 70s wouldn't be in the herald tier either. Hanging with him for a few issues until he gets angry and completely trounces them does not warrant a bump up.

Yeah, I do feel that how Hulk destroyed them is way more important than the collateral damage, and to a slight degree, more important than who they were. It shows that Hulk on this level doesn't even need to directly hit you to mess you up, and based on what weaker Hulks have shown (as well as Prime himself), I find it a guarantee that Hulk is capable of harming him (potentially badly) as well as being tough enough to endure a lot of what Prime could dish out. That alone makes it a snitch that this fight will be anything but easy for Prime.

Concerning the other stuff:

I personally always found the x ton range classifications to be, at best, overemphasized, and at worst, completely worthless. By the handbook standards, guys like Odin and Zeus are weaker physically than their sons...in spite of the fact that when they really want to, they can easily beat the ever loving shit out of them.

But anyway, back to the tiers, Savage Hulk, to me, even at his "weakest" average, was always around low herald level (and as that general "tier" evolved, so too did Hulk, virtually always being the strongest or one of the strongest beings on the planet), especially when they introduced guys like Thor and the like (which Hulk had since been virtually always been treated as a peer or equal at the least to when it came to melee only).

Ultimately, it's a moot point as Wendigo and the others were definitely amped when Hulk wiped them out (to what level, I can't honestly say as x1000 seems ridiculous...but then again, under the same writer, Hulk withstood 133 Hercs and I'd rather not ignore quantifiable evidence in spite of me thinking it's phucking stupid beyond belief...which I do lol). But yeah, considering how the Savage persona has evolved and has been retroactively dealt with by Pak and others through flashbacks and retellings, by today's standards, Savage Hulk is at the very least low herald in general formidability and the enemies who consistently gave him fits should be tiered accordingly.

I'm not saying this to be rude, but here's your logic;

Because Bi-Beast and Abomination gave base Savage Hulk trouble, they should be in the same tier as him and above people who beat him.

They should be move into a tier with people like Apocalypse, who defeated Hulk no problem. Above people like Namor, who actually has legit wins against the Hulk. Above people who are stronger than them, when all they have is physical strength.

Using Savage Hulk's low herald placement as a measuring stick when placing people is a terrible idea, especially when the reason for putting people there is that they gave him a hard time and eventually lost :/

Originally posted by curryman
I'm not saying this to be rude, but here's your logic;

Because Bi-Beast and Abomination gave base Savage Hulk trouble, they should be in the same tier as him and above people who beat him.

They should be move into a tier with people like Apocalypse, who defeated Hulk no problem. Above people like Namor, who actually has legit wins against the Hulk. Above people who are stronger than them, when all they have is physical strength.

Using Savage Hulk's low herald placement as a measuring stick when placing people is a terrible idea, especially when the reason for putting people there is that they gave him a hard time and eventually lost :/

Well, to be frank, the KMC tiers aren't all that accurate, which is why the mods are trying to "fix" it. As such, your mileage, as well as mine, will vary accordingly.

But yes, I would imagine guys like Abomination should be in the general tier level as Hulk himself (with Hulk having the capacity to go beyond it when angered to a certain degree). And really, Apocalypse is probably beyond low herald as we'd definite it now. And I'd argue that Namor should definitely be low herald to begin with considering how he fares against Hulk and others.

Losing to Hulk doesn't mean you're automatically in a lower tier than him. For every "low herald", there are those who are near the bottom, near the top, and towards the middle.

You might feel that they're accurate, I agree. It's always going to be like that when it's not clear exactly what we're going by. This is what I'm looking at.

Abomination's strength relative to those in the high-meta and low herald tier. Normally I'd go by a lot of things, like versatility, overall effectiveness in other terms beyond combat, but Abomination has none of that. He's only good for fighting.

EVEN by those terms, he's weaker than a great deal of people populating the high meta tier, and weaker than just about every single character in the lower herald tier (completely ignoring versatility and that) and has a worse track-record.

Losing to the Hulk doesn't mean you're in a tier than him, but when you're consistently losing to him (and you want to move him based off of those fights) then you need to stop and think of what you're doing, because you're moving him above people who have beaten the Hulk using their strength and nothing else.

The absolute lack of substance that characterize the counter arguments that typically come up against the HOTM feat is continually amazing. Logic and reasonability and on panel depiction go out the window in favor of biased assesments based on inaccurate. preconceived notions. facepalm

Firstly abomination is definitley at least low herald level in terms of strength and durability. Aside from his numerous encounters with Hulk, he has handled Namor pretty definitively underwater before.

lol still abomination should not even be being discussed as He wasn't even amongst those destroyed in the dark dimension. Armageddon however was and he from portrayal is a legit high herald as he was shown to take down both Merged Hulk AND Surfer fairly easily. Wendigo is a legit low herald level Brick also. Fing Fang Foom who was also involved in the conflict is low herald level but was tremendously AMPED which would push him past that classification.

As for the mindless ones, taking them as anything but how they were portrayed in that arc and using it to determine the feat in question is flat out asinine. This is especially true because we know they vary tremendously from comic to comic and hence the only accurate way of gauging their powerlevels is from indications within the very comic being discussed. In that comic their combined force was indicated as being too much for Umar despite being in her own realm to even survive. Furthermore, there was absolutely nothing shown to indicate Umar being gimped or depowered. As a matter of fact, historically Umar and her brother Dormammu have been unable to handle the totality of the mindless ones when put under attack which is the whole reason for the barrier that protects the dark dimension from the mindless ones realm. Attempting to denigrate the mindless ones in that arc by appealing to lesser feats is thus nonsensical. The same goes for trying to imply that Umar was somehow weaker when there is no evidence in the slightest to support such. If anything Umar was at the time the sole head of the dimension meaning she would have had the flames of regency and hence would be even stronger.

Even if you want to argue Bi-Beasts classification, the aforementioned are pretty inarguable an clear cut. We had a high herald level character in Armcheddon, a low herald in Wendigo, A low herald that was amped tremendously by the wishing well (meaning he was very likely above that) in Fing Fang Foom, the totality of the army of mindless ones that were powerful enough to completely overwhelm a skyfather level character in her own realm where she is most powerful, in addition to Bi Beast.

That is already an extremely impressive line up. The skyfather defeating army of mindless ones alone is sufficient to make this a mindboggling feat, but then when you take into account the way in which they were destroyed? it pushes it clear into insane territory. The characters in question where disintegrated which takes several orders of magntitude (multiple 0s) more force than a mere ko or even regular kill. Then there is the fact that they were disintegrated not from a direct hit but with the shockwave of an indirect collision that happened miles away in mid air from the characters in question which in turn takes several orders of magnitude more force than if they had been disintegrated from a direct hit. Its insane

HOTM hulk unlike Prime didn't have any low feats and in terms of the relative performance comparisons with characters of the herald tier frankly blows him outta the water as it takes much much more force to do what Hulk did to those herald level characters characters than anything SBP did against any of the herald level people he fought. That's without getting into the implications of the added fact that he also vaporized an army of beings so powerful they would overwhelm a skyfather....with those same residual shockwaves of his mid air collision..

i knew this fight was gonna create some good shit but this is turning out better than i thought, ha. I still feel it's a push but some good ass arguments being made.

Originally posted by dynamix
i knew this fight was gonna create some good shit but this is turning out better than i thought, ha. I still feel it's a push but some good ass arguments being made.

hmm...i declared it a push (a tie) but if i HAD to pick someone...i would probably pick WBH. lol, honestly they are both a few of my fav so its pretty hard to pick however, i feel WBH operates on a slightly higher level (imo of course). I feel superboy prime is more on wwh's level (maybe a bit higher) but i personally think wbh is a whole 'nother animal from wwh.

also the arguments for Hulk is somewhat more convincing lol. I know u went with hulk, but do u think SBP can get a few wins from the matchup?

Originally posted by dynamix
also the arguments for Hulk is somewhat more convincing lol. I know u went with hulk, but do u think SBP can get a few wins from the matchup?

The way Prime approach fights, he would literally get walked through if he did the same against this version of Hulk. In order for him to even come close to pulling a win, he would have to fight in a fashion we've never seen him fight before on panel.

Originally posted by Naija boy
A low herald that was amped tremendously by the wishing well (meaning he was very likely above that) in Fing Fang Foom,

Just checked, Fing Fang Fooms, mystical energy was measured at 17.32 hercs in IH 635 😐. Which shows that his amp from the wishing well was indeed a HUGE HUGE amp and pushed way above low herald.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Just checked, Fing Fang Fooms, mystical energy was measured at 17.32 hercs in IH 635 😐. Which shows that his amp from the wishing well was indeed a HUGE HUGE amp and pushed way above low herald.

What in the hell. Where did you get that from?