I mean come on really,who's got the balls to admit that mace surpassed
yoda in sabers and sidious surpasses him in the Force? me...
to make everybody feel better even Anakin can surpass Yoda,Did a source say Anakin was the most powerful jedi ever/more powerful than
master yoda and mace? right? okay there you go....all i'm saying that yoda was not the most powerful or the best in sabers...
Originally posted by juyomaster34
I mean come on really,who's got the balls to admit that mace surpassed
yoda in sabers and sidious surpasses him in the Force? me...to make everybody feel better even Anakin can surpass Yoda,Did a source say Anakin was the most powerful jedi ever/more powerful than
master yoda and mace? right? okay there you go....all i'm saying that yoda was not the most powerful or the best in sabers...
Windu was losing to Sidious until vaapad kicked in.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Match Yoda in Power no....
In lightsaber combat yes,surpass him.
Why do you think he was chosen to be his second in command,
his jr.? hum?
5:28 to 5:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5m2yIAxeBHA
"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."
With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.
-From Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force
Yoda>Mace in sabers.
again,not with the force,no....not by a long shot.
but in sabers...yes
why/how? well Yoda is is master of all lightsaber combat but Vaapad...
Yoda's chosen Form Ataru,is the form he has to compensate for his lack of age,reach,height...Ataru greatly taxes the body meaning Yoda will tire before Mace.
All Mace or anybody has to is survive Yoda's Ataru onslaught long enough for him to tire.
take advantage of his weak points and go for the kill...
the key is endure,survive,and go for the kill.
We all know he won't kill Yoda so... don't even waste letters and thoughts.
terrain does not matter to a true master of combat,it doesn't even matter to a Sith,so why should it matter to a master of Vaapad? hum?
I stand by my opinion Yoda is greater with the Force....
in sabers he was....he's not anymore Mace is imo.
I've read the novels,saw the movies,read all the sources....
Yoda is greater than Mace in the Force...all day long he admits it....
but in sabers Vaapad trumps Ataru and anyother style....
ALL The others styles failed against Palpatine,all except Vaapad...
Its canon that Mace with Vaapad beat palpatine in sabers and yoda lost...not just in sabers but the Force,too..against palpatine..
hey its canon lucas,disney,whatever,its in the history books(fiction)
(internet) its everywhere....
Actually, there was some doubt about that. Like, Vapaad is particularly good at channeling darkness, but the usual source for that is Mace himself. There was never a significant mirroring effect with, say, Dooku (that I recall).
It is possible to argue that Mace can reproduce everything that Sidious did, even without Sidious's presence. ( think I've made this point before, but SW isn't like Pokemon with super effective types)
That theory doesn't really fit with Stover's interpretation of events in the novelization, though. Although half of the superconducting loop comes from Windu's own darkness, he makes it clear that Mace is copying Palpatine's own dark side energies.
Like, I'm too lazy to bring up the passage, but that's what it says. *waves hand*
well,yes and no....
yes Yoda admits to a certain inner darkness in himself.
well buried...and probably after DR no longer has...
which if right is a no...
Your opponent doesn't need to have something you can Siphon...Mace
can feed on his own inner darkness,as well as enjoyment of battle,the thrill,the rush,his own emotions, this has been debated many times but after checking other sources on how Juyo and Vaapad works
I was right about somethings and I was wrong on some things.
So there will plenty debate on what I said,I stand by everything I said
It's a friendly debate i'm not mad about anyones opinions,neither
should yall be mad about mine..
If this was Luke SkyWalker this would be Luke all day greater than Yoda in everything!!!!
but hey if you want to check what i'm saying,check the sources,it's out there you just have to read and make time....
Originally posted by Master Han
That theory doesn't really fit with Stover's interpretation of events in the novelization, though. Although half of the superconducting loop comes from Windu's own darkness, he makes it clear that Mace is copying Palpatine's own dark side energies.Like, I'm too lazy to bring up the passage, but that's what it says. *waves hand*
but the gist is that since the 'loop doesn't show up anywhere else, and each increase in power output is accomplished only by Mace's focus and effort, his "sinking deeper into Vapaad" can be interpreted as accessing further reserves of his own.
This has the added benefit of explaining his battles against Dooku, along with positioning Shatterpoint as a useful (rather than aberrant) datapoint.
Interesting theory, but it's contradicted by the actual passage, which makes it clear that half of Windu's superconducting loop draws energy from Sidious's mastery of the dark side, to a point where it pushes vaapad to its limits. And that this isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere else hardly contradicts the point, since the movie novels are, to my knowledge, higher canon. It's as though every narrator has to include every detail of a battle for said already mentioned details to exist.
But since I'm too lazy/tired/whatever to get out the passage...I can't prove it now. Meh.
Neph to the rescue:
"Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.
He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.
Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.
This was Vaapad's ultimate test.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint."
I have the whole thing on Notepad. Makes for easy quoting.
hey I agree with you Master Han,I'm taking nothing away from you or ROTJ Vader,Mizu Yoda,xsupremex skills,I'm just looking at it in another
way why do think he is second only to Yoda,his jr. and all that?
or how?
IMO for Yoda to say you are second to him alone is saying alot,he had to prove himself worthy of such a thing by not only creating Vaapad but
going on quests,missions,experience,training Jedi,pondering the light and dark sides,etc. And you are right,and say anybody was wrong
not on purpose,anyway...just saying imo.
Mace Windu is a legendary, exceptionally powerful Jedi. One of the greatest of all time, IMO. There are only a handful of practitioners superior to him in combative ability...and Yoda is one of them. We know this both from OOU and in-universe accolades, and that Yoda matched Palpatine from the start, whereas Windu was losing until sinking into vaapad.
restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.
This was Vaapad's ultimate test.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.
he had feared the darkness in himself.
The only line that suggests he is actually using Sidious's power, rather than his own, is "shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again" but this can be easily explained that he is using the same source of power. Everywhere else in Stover's writing, fights are described as a metaphysical ebb and tide (esp Skywalker/Kenobi).
I think that there is a case that between Stover's RotS and Shatterpoint, I could be convinced that Vapaad is consistently using Mace's own power only.