Mace Windu & Kit Fisto Vs Anakin Skywalker & Obi Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by mnat801
The way you put Anakin in such high esteem though makes it hard for me to believe he could be defeated by Obi wan who is frankly "1 or 2 leagues" away from Dooku/Anakin.

And a clear defeat after a long, hard fight sounds more convincing than an early and a suspcious force push to determine superiority.

But at the same time I do understand where you're coming from and so I acknowledge that. I just feel it doesn't add up.

Of course it doesn't add up. Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin>Dooku is the biggest mind boggler in the movies(the other one being Mace defeating Sidious when Yoda could not). And people on these boards have all sorts of theories on it like Sith Anakin being no match for Jedi Anakin due to not being in the right state of mind.

But of all those fights the widest gap was between Dooku and Kenobi. You can't call the Force attack suspicous when it was Dooku who was outnumbered, and when he outfought the 2 of them together at that point.

You also can't call it suspicous due to it happening twice in that fight. The fact that he disposed of Kenobi so quickly just confirms the huge difference between the 2.

I think Mace would feed off then anger of Anakin and beat him.. quicker than Kenobi would beat Fisto.. thus it would be Mace vs. kenobi alone or with Fisto tired and almost dead. EIther way Mace takes out kenobi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course it doesn't add up. Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin>Dooku is the biggest mind boggler in the movies(the other one being Mace defeating Sidious when Yoda could not). And people on these boards have all sorts of theories on it like Sith Anakin being no match for Jedi Anakin due to not being in the right state of mind.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But of all those fights the widest gap was between Dooku and Kenobi. You can't call the Force attack suspicous when it was Dooku who was outnumbered, and when he outfought the 2 of them together at that point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You also can't call it suspicous due to it happening twice in that fight. The fact that he disposed of Kenobi so quickly just confirms the huge difference between the 2.

The way I see it Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin > Dooku. Not everything is as clear as A > B > C in star wars. Dooku is the only person in SW that seems to be a real headache for Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801

But seeing that he used the force to dispose of Kenobi rather than through the use of saber to saber combat like in AOTC, the gap, if there is any, won't be as big as you make it out to be. Kenobi's recent feats against Maul and Sith Anakin, should make this more than clear.

Pure Saber skills are different. In terms of an all out it's quite clear Dooku >> Kenobi.

But even if Kenobi had TK equal to Dooku's, I just think Dooku seems to be the superior comabtant to Kenobi with the powerful kicks and simultaneous force attacks he's displayed numerous times in Saber fights.

Kenobi does have great feats against Maul and Sith Anakin. But Maul is not Dooku's equal, and Kenobi knows Anakin's moves better than anyone.
Also if Sith Anakin's TK Push equaled Kenobi did, and he also tanked that force push only as well as Kenobi's, then it's quite clear that Dooku would Force TK Sith Anakin all over the place.

@Darth Power well put buddy. I was about to jump in, but it seems you have this under control.

And I would put Dooku above Kenobi with a saber forsure. Not by leagues or anything but above.

This is a good match. Depends on the setting.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
@Darth Power well put buddy. I was about to jump in, but it seems you have this under control.

And I would put Dooku above Kenobi with a saber forsure. Not by leagues or anything but above.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Pure Saber skills are different. In terms of an all out it's quite clear Dooku >> Kenobi.

But even if Kenobi had TK equal to Dooku's, I just think Dooku seems to be the superior comabtant to Kenobi with the powerful kicks and simultaneous force attacks he's displayed numerous times in Saber fights.

Kenobi does have great feats against Maul and Sith Anakin. But Maul is not Dooku's equal, and Kenobi knows Anakin's moves better than anyone.
Also if Sith Anakin's TK Push equaled Kenobi did, and he also tanked that force push only as well as Kenobi's, then it's quite clear that Dooku would Force TK Sith Anakin all over the place.

Plus, if Dooku is clearly above Kenobi, then Kenobi is clearly above Sith Anakin. As I said before, Dooku force pushed and choked Kenobi, but he didn't actually defeat him. Unlike how Kenobi defeated Sith Anakin.

At the same time, there certainly isn't clear evidence of Kenobi > Dooku. But that doesn't simply mean Anakin > kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
Anakin knows Kenobi's moves more than anyone. How is this an advantage for Kenobi if it isn't an advantage for Anakin?

Problem is it makes it a completely different fight. So you can't use that and compare it to Dooku vs Skywalker, and then use that to judge Kenobi > Dooku. Which has already been proven to be false when Dooku stomped Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
Plus, if Dooku is clearly above Kenobi, then Kenobi is clearly above Sith Anakin.

Well no because Dooku stomped Kenobi. Whilst Kenobi and Skywalker were pretty even.

Originally posted by mnat801
As I said before, Dooku force pushed and choked Kenobi, but he didn't actually defeat him.

LOL He left him knocked out. Could have easily killed him. How is that not defeating Kenobi?

Even if we're talking about pure Sabers it's not like Kenobi ever had the advantage over Dooku. Whilst Dooku did show a clear advantage over Kenobi and Skywalker in that scene where he smacked them both.

Originally posted by mnat801
Unlike how Kenobi defeated Sith Anakin.

It was a long drawn out fight. Could have gone either way with such an even fight. Kenobi won that one through an environmental advantage. No guarantee of that happening in a rematch at all. But for argument sake I'll agree Kenobi >/= Sith Anakin.

However there is a guarantee Dooku would beat Kenobi again, simply because he stomped him. There was no equality there at all. Dooku was simply >> Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
At the same time, there certainly isn't clear evidence of Kenobi > Dooku. But that doesn't simply mean Anakin > kenobi.

Look fact is Skywalker has tanked all Dooku's force attacks in TCW. Then Dooku completely stomped Kenobi with the Force. Then Sith Anakin and Kenobi were completely equal in their force push contest.

So there's only 2 possible explanations for that. Either Sith Anakin was weaker than TCW Anakin in the Force. Or ROTS Dooku > TCW Dooku in the Force. Take your pick : )

Or there's some Rock-Paper-Scissors action going on. Dooku can slip past Kenobi's guard, but Anakin can't power through it. Kenobi can't last long enough against Dooku's skill to find an opening, but he can against Anakin's.

Originally posted by Q99
Or there's some Rock-Paper-Scissors action going on. Dooku can slip past Kenobi's guard, but Anakin can't power through it. Kenobi can't last long enough against Dooku's skill to find an opening, but he can against Anakin's.

In Pure Sabers/Close combat with everyone's TK being equal, I guess it's entirely possible that Dooku >/= Kenobi but against Skywalker Dooku lacks the defensive prowess to defend against Skywalker whilst Kenobi can handle his offense much better. (Although my personal guess would be Kenobi handling Skywalker better is also to do with them knowing each others moves so well).

As for their proven Force TK abilities:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Look fact is Skywalker has tanked all Dooku's force attacks in TCW. Then Dooku completely stomped Kenobi with the Force. Then Sith Anakin and Kenobi were completely equal in their force push contest.

So there's only 2 possible explanations for that. Either Sith Anakin was weaker than TCW Anakin in the Force. Or ROTS Dooku > TCW Dooku in the Force. Take your pick : )

Size of what he's moving in comparison to a starfighter:

Wait? The starfighter's landing on that platform he was moving?

Yeah.

Well then the mystery of Kenobi stalemating Skywalker in the Force becomes ever more puzzling.

Anakin sucked in the end of RotS.

Skywalker should've been able to defeat Kenobi. He didn't really only due to the plot, imo. The whole "master vs. apprentice ultimate final battle" thing. It just fit well with the whole story and Lucas could explain Vader's suit that way... In reality, Kenobi shouldn't be able to defeat Anakin. That's the way I see it, anyway.

Agreed. Anakin is better in every way possible.

Characters are as Powerful As The Plot Demands in Lucas's world. Hell, even in the Whedonverse.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Characters are as Powerful As The Plot Demands in Lucas's world. Hell, even in the Whedonverse.

I know. It sucks.