Originally posted by juggerman
Again, did Odin see this as a breach of the Treaty? Have we been shown this Treaty? Do we know what is considered an actual breach of it?
Doesn't matter if Odin saw this as a breach of treaty or not. We're not talking about Odin. Thor saw it as a breach of treaty and went to dealt with it as he saw fit. He may or may have been wrong, or Odin may or may have been wrong (in this case Odin was actually wrong).
Still that doesn't matter. Thor believed it was an act of war (which it actually was) and he went to deal with it.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Doesn't matter if Odin saw this as a breach of treaty or not. We're not talking about Odin. Thor saw it as a breach of treaty and went to dealt with it as he saw fit. He may or may have been wrong, or Odin may or may have been wrong (in this case Odin was actually wrong).Still that doesn't matter. Thor believed it was an act of war (which it actually was) and he went to deal with it.
Technically we don't know that it was. We have no clue as to what this "Treaty" described as an act of war. Can three Giants acting on their own accord independent of the rest of their race be considered an "Act of War"?(Yes i know it turns out differently but he had no way of knowing this) Odin did not seem to think so. What he believed is much more important than what Thor believed seeing as he was the one that helped create it, not his son Thor.
Still doesn't change what happened. He killed Frost Giants, for name calling no less, in cold blood. You can say the rest were "attacking him", tho you have no proof that they were as they could have just been trying to stop his rampage, but not the first two. Hell the second one he hit did nothing at all.
Now this is the part where you go "But they COULD have survived..." with no actual evidence to support it. Fact is they(Frost Giants) were killed by a lot less than what Thor did to those two and while they were actually on guard. Unless you have some actual reason as to why you believed they lived besides "could have" then we can conclude they died
Originally posted by juggerman
Technically we don't know that it was. We have no clue as to what this "Treaty" described as an act of war. Can three Giants acting on their own accord independent of the rest of their race be considered an "Act of War"?(Yes i know it turns out differently but he had no way of knowing this) Odin did not seem to think so. What he believed is much more important than what Thor believed seeing as he was the one that helped create it, not his son Thor.Still doesn't change what happened. He killed Frost Giants, for name calling no less, in cold blood. You can say the rest were "attacking him", tho you have no proof that they were as they could have just been trying to stop his rampage, but not the first two. Hell the second one he hit did nothing at all.
Now this is the part where you go "But they COULD have survived..." with no actual evidence to support it. Fact is they(Frost Giants) were killed by a lot less than what Thor did to those two and while they were actually on guard. Unless you have some actual reason as to why you believed they lived besides "could have" then we can conclude they died
Actually if you're the one accusing someone of murder, burden of proof is on you. You can't just accuse someone of murder because you saw him hit the guy. So, you're accusing Thor of murder, where's your proof?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Actually if you're the one accusing someone of murder, burden of proof is on you. You can't just accuse someone of murder because you saw him hit the guy. So, you're accusing Thor of murder, where's your proof?
The Frost Giants died. Now if it was "murder" or not can be debated imo
Originally posted by juggerman
The Frost Giants died. Now if it was "murder" or not can be debated imo
And of course this brings us back to the whole "you have no proof they died" argument. All you have is that you saw them get knocked down. Not exactly a convincing argument. You claim that the frost giants were killed by far less, please cite me these examples where they were killed by "far less".
I'd say "far less" or at least 'less' would be the giants killed by Thor's teammates who as we know, are less powerful than Thor and especially a Thor wielding Mjolnir.
-Sif killed one via spear to chest
-Loki killed two with daggers, one stab and one thrown
-Fandral killed one via sword
There were others that appeared to have died at the companions' hands, but I guess one could argue "they were just knocked down".
It should also be noted that several of the ones Thor knocked down, he hit them so hard they flew back/upwards several yards. The very first one he hit, that fool flew up and out a good 100 feet and crashed into the mountain, it would be silly to think he survived, considering some of his kin died from far less.
Originally posted by Silent Master
To be fair, the three people you mentioned used blades, compared to Mjolnir which is a blunt object. I've actually walked away from getting hit in the head by a brick..but I'm fairly sure that a sword to the chest would kill me.
What if that brick hit you with enough force that you flew back 10, 20, 50 or 100 feet?
Blunt or not, this is the guy and weapon that sent back and staggered the Hulk. It's blatantly obvious that a few giants Thor hit were with lethal blows, if not all of them.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm not saying that he didn't kill some of them, I just don't think sending someone flying is proof that you killed them....hell the Hulk, Thor, Loki and Ironman have all sent people flying without killing them.
Pretty sure you told Juggerman there is no proof that any of the giants Thor hit died and where this started.
But yes, at least some of them were lethal blows, as noted. IMO, most of them were; if not all. There's also all the giants that tried to surround Thor who were caught in his shock wave and buried under many, many, many tons of rock and ice. They probably didn't survive that.
Originally posted by Robtard
What if that brick hit you with enough force that you flew back 10, 20, 50 or 100 feet?Blunt or not, this is the guy and weapon that sent back and staggered the Hulk. It's blatantly obvious that a few giants Thor hit were with lethal blows, if not all of them.
Well that's the thing though, a blunt object may or may not kill. It may only hurt you or knock you out or can kill with enough force. Say a baseball bat or a steel pipe, you can hit someone strong enough to only get a bruised head, or hit him strong enough to knock him out, or hit him strong enough to kill him. We don't know how tough Frost giants are against blunt trauma so we don't really know if getting thrown back 10-20 feet by a blunt object is enough to kill them.
Compare that to a sword, well it doesn't really take that much effort to kill or seriously hurt someone with a sword. Stab someone with a sword with minimal effort (or heck throw a knife at someone with minimal effort) and you could still easily kill him.
As Rob and i have said the FG's were killed by a lot of other things far less powerful that what the first two were hit with.
I see it like if we see 10-20 people being killed by a fall from 1,000 feet on to jagged rocks and then we see one fall from 30,000 feet but don't check to see if he's dead i feel like it's pretty clear he died. There is no real reason to believe otherwise
Originally posted by Robtard
Pretty sure you told Juggerman there is no proof that any of the giants Thor hit died and where this started.But yes, at least some of them were lethal blows, as noted. IMO, most of them were; if not all. There's also all the giants that tried to surround Thor who were caught in his shock wave and buried under many, many, many tons of rock and ice. They probably didn't survive that.
My conversation with jugs was about two specific FG's, the ones Thor hit before the battle started.