Yoda vs. Kas'im (saber duel)

IDK if "?YLLAER" is serious or not, but I don't really give a f*ck either way.

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Bane (who at the time already had the better speed and general Force use feats to his name, as well as being physically far bigger and stronger than Yoda)

Greater speed feats? Has he ever matched blades with a guy who blitzed and dropped three of the greatest swordsmen in history within seconds?

Greater Force feats? Has he ever caught the lightning of the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived? His only remarkable feats in the Force are destroying the foundations of a thousands-year-old temple with a charged Force wave, and ripping through the defenses of some weakling sith (Yoda did the latter to a far, far more powerful Ventress).

had such a significant advantage over Kas'im largely because he basically knew his techniques inside out (as Kas'im did his) where it basically rendered their respective technique irrelevant and became a contest of their strength in the Force and physical abilities alone. Yoda would not have those same advantages.

Thanks for bringing that up; Kas'im would have no experience fighting an opponent of Yoda's size and stature.

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Yoda's really not that fast; he's fast and he's small and he's agile and he performs lots of fancy acrobatic manoeuvres that alltogether create the illusion that he's faster than he actually is.

Tell that to Sidious, who dropped three legendary blade masters within seconds, and then tried to run from Yoda.

Bane has at times moved so quickly that he appears practically invisible to the eyes of trained Force Users.

This hyperbole/description/whatever is frequently used to describe practically every combatant at one point or another. It's not really exclusive.

He was able to down Sirak with a rather elaborate combination and it took all of the Sith in attendance time to register what had even happened. This was still around halfway through his training by the point of his fight with Kas'im. All this for a monster of a man who's primary physical attributes were his strength and size no less. [/B]

Sirak at this point is just an apprentice. Big deal. And Kas'im was losing to Bane before he whipped out his dual blades. Bane in PoD progressed in power perhaps faster than any person in the mythos...but from an absolute standpoint, he isn't shit compared to Yoda.

Meh, there are plenty of people who progressed faster than Bane as I recall. Kyle Katarn for one.

Originally posted by Master Han
Greater speed feats? Has he ever matched blades with a guy who blitzed and dropped three of the [b]greatest swordsmen in history within seconds?

Greater Force feats? Has he ever caught the lightning of the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived? His only remarkable feats in the Force are destroying the foundations of a thousands-year-old temple with a charged Force wave, and ripping through the defenses of some weakling sith (Yoda did the latter to a far, far more powerful Ventress).[/B]

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
In DoE, his speed was such that we was able to block rain drops. Bane was a master swordsmen and surpassed every other student in mere months. He can desintegrate opponents with a flick of his wrist. His lightning is so powerful he reduced a Drexl to 'smoking husk'.

Really, Bane with or without Orbalisks, is quite impressive.

...Unless you were referring to PoD Bane.

Tell that to Sidious, who dropped three legendary blade masters within seconds, and then tried to run from Yoda.

Legendary? There is a huge gap between 'celebrated swordsmen' and 'legendary swordsmen'. Those three, although greatly skilled combatants, were not of legendary skill, as you put it.

Kolar or Tiin wold take Kas'im.

👆

I disagree, but the 3 are certainly on the same level.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
...Unless you were referring to PoD Bane.

Which I was.

Legendary? There is a huge gap between 'celebrated swordsmen' and 'legendary swordsmen'. Those three, although greatly skilled combatants, were not of legendary skill, as you put it.

We can debate semantics till high noon, but Windu and Kenobi both describe the swordsmen as among "the greatest...ever produced". It's certainly a more impressive speed feat than...taking out a powerful apprentice.

This was only Bane's Windu and Kenobi's opinion, and unless Bane Windu and Kenobi's knows the absolute ability of every swordsman before them, it's useless.

Let's be clear about one thing here... yes Yoda wins imo... but Kit, Kolar or Tin would not take Kas'im... That is a complete load of crap. In a pure saber fight I feel like Kas'im would do pretty good against yoda... still lose.. but it would be after a long difficult fight. Yoda' force powers are what make it a non fight all out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This was only Bane's Windu and Kenobi's opinion, and unless Bane Windu and Kenobi's knows the absolute ability of every swordsman before them, it's useless.

Irony overload aside, Windu and Kenobi are experienced, credentialed, well connected observers with no reason to lie. Their opinions hold heavy merit, if not infallibility, and certainly do not deserve the designation "useless".

If thats the case, would you be willing to accept Kreia's opinion that Tulak Hord was "the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords whose skill was considered remarkable even for his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived" and that "we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters." based on the fact that Kreia's an actual Historian with access to vast stores of knowledge such as Korriban and Malachor V plus whatever she had access to in her time as a Jedi Master (historian)?

Furthermore, Bane actually supports the reason he suspects Kas'im of being perhaps the greatest swordsman ever, describing how he mastered all forms of lightsaber combat before spending decades refining and perfecting all aspects of the art. It isn't like he's making a ridiculous statement, it seems highly likely to be true based on the fact that we know no-one to have developed their skills that much prior to Kas'im or anyone with the evidence to rival him.

In contrast, Windu and Kenobi are not scholars whose opinions we'd be able to trust on such a matter, nor do they actually give reasons for why those guys are so great when by all accounts, outside of those quotes their skills are not particularly notable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If thats the case, would you be willing to accept Kreia's opinion that Tulak Hord was "the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords whose skill was considered remarkable even for his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived" and that "we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters." based on the fact that Kreia's an actual Historian with access to vast stores of knowledge such as Korriban and Malachor V plus whatever she had access to in her time as a Jedi Master (historian)?

Not really.

1. Kreia is a pathological liar.
2. Historian or no, Kreia is referring to people who lived thousands of years before her time.
3. I don't see how this is relevant. Nobody denied that Tulak Hord was a remarkable lightsaber duelist.

Furthermore, Bane actually supports the reason he suspects Kas'im of being perhaps the greatest swordsman ever, describing how he mastered all forms of lightsaber combat before spending decades refining and perfecting all aspects of the art. It isn't like he's making a ridiculous statement, it seems highly likely to be true based on the fact that we know no-one to have developed their skills that much prior to Kas'im or anyone with the evidence to rival him.

I agree that Kas'im > Agen Kolar, but it should be noted that Bane, at this point, hardly has the experience or understanding to make as educated a judgment as Kenobi or Windu, and may be referring primarily to technical ability.

In contrast, Windu and Kenobi are not scholars whose opinions we'd be able to trust on such a matter,

LOL, wut? 😆

Both are renowned swordsmen who would not talk out of their asses when dealing in context with the issue of taking down Sidious.

nor do they actually give reasons for why those guys are so great when by all accounts, outside of those quotes their skills are not particularly notable.

Talking out of your ass, Neph? The Jedi in question have pretty remarkable feats; Kit Fisto absolutely destroys Obi Wan soon after AotC, and hands a similar beatdown to Grievous.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not really.

1. Kreia is a pathological liar.
2. Historian or no, Kreia is referring to people who lived thousands of years before her time.
3. I don't see how this is relevant. Nobody denied that Tulak Hord was a remarkable lightsaber duelist.

1. No she isn't. She lies at times to further her agenda but most of what she tells you is true. When she lies its purely for her or her plans benefit. She has no reason to lie about Hord. Besides, its been supported by the info confirming that Hord was a legendary swordman.
2. Whereas Windu and Kenobi are talking about all of history. Kreia has better credentials to make such statements since shes highly knowledgeable about history, being an historian and all.
3. Its an example. I was just curious if you'd give Kreia the same benefit of the doubt that you do the Jedi.

Originally posted by Master Han
I agree that Kas'im > Agen Kolar, but it should be noted that Bane, at this point, hardly has the experience or understanding to make as educated a judgment as Kenobi or Windu, and may be referring primarily to technical ability.

I'm referring primarily to technical ability. If the info he gives is accurate, his experience and understanding is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, wut? 😆

Both are renowned swordsmen who would not talk out of their asses when dealing in context with the issue of taking down Sidious.

Eh, did you miss the word 'scholar?' Fine swordsman they may be, but since they're not noted to be very knowledgeable in terms of history, they hardly have reliable credentials to be making statements about Kolar, Tiin and Fisto in relation to every swordman in history.

Originally posted by Master Han
Talking out of your ass, Neph? The Jedi in question have pretty remarkable feats; Kit Fisto absolutely destroys Obi Wan soon after AotC, and hands a similar beatdown to Grievous.

That he's a good fighters is not in question. That he's one of the greatest swordsman in history is. Besides, those feats needn't be indications of skill per say.

Originally posted by Master Han
Greater speed feats? Has he ever matched blades with a guy who blitzed and dropped three of the greatest swordsmen in history within seconds?

You should really try substantiating what that quote even means before you continuously throw it out like that. I submit that Sirak was even more impressive than the masters you listed, he was the greatest of the students at the academy aside from Bane, and Kopecz later remarked that the students of the Academy were the most powerful warriors the BoD had, so it's likely he was one of the strongest warriors of the order, and the manner in which Bane blitzed him was far more impressive, doing it while Sirak was fully immersed in tehir battle and with such a speed that all the other students around them were completely oblivious to what had happened.

Greater Force feats? Has he ever caught the lightning of the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived?

He has caught the lightning of around 30 Sith Lords at once and done so continuously until the power he was containing had reached planetary levels.

Thanks for bringing that up; Kas'im would have no experience fighting an opponent of Yoda's size and stature.

In the same way that Yoda would have no experience against a guy with as comprehensive a mastery of all seven forms as Kas'im has, who constantly switches them up in combat.

This hyperbole/description/whatever is frequently used to describe practically every combatant at one point or another. It's not really exclusive.

This wasn't hyperbole; the participants reacted in a manner that would necessitate a literal interpretation of the quote.

Sirak at this point is just an apprentice. Big deal.

he was the top student, and the students were declared the most powerful members of the order.

And Kas'im was losing to Bane before he whipped out his dual blades.

Largely because Bane was perfectly familiar with his tehniques, where it became a contest of who was the more powerful.

Bane in PoD progressed in power perhaps faster than any person in the mythos...but from an absolute standpoint, he isn't shit compared to Yoda.

He was both by the end of PoD, the fastest learner and one of the most powerful, grounded enitities in SW history. His feats have far surpassed Yoda's in sheer scale, and that's if we ignore Yoda's G-Canon limitations.

Sirak was thought to be the Sith'ari he was so powerful and the 'weakness' in his form was that he wasn't used to long battles because he wins every fight too quickly. The man has some props.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, there are plenty of people who progressed faster than Bane as I recall. Kyle Katarn for one.

Kyle Katarn? Really? Aside from Nomi Sunrider and Exar Kun I can't really think of anyone who was comparable, if we're looking at it from the perspectives of both lightsabers and the Force.

kyle katarn defeated 6 powerful dark jedi, and one extremely powerful one, with little training.

Well as was recently posted:

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
holy krap, kyle might be FAR stronger than i first thought. if this is true, at least, i found this on some forum describing kyle's beating dark jedi masters feat:

Didn't I already explain the seven Dark Jedi were powerful? They are not the "average" Dark Jedi, or Reborns. They are the Seven Dark Jedi. Jerec was trained by Lord Vader, Jocasta Nu, and Sidious himself. He was also capable of cutting people off from the Force ("Jerec has the uncanny power to absorb and overshadow one’s connection to The Force"😉, was a fully trained Jedi, he had a boost from the Valley of the Jedi when he fought Kyle, and Qu Rahn had said this:

"If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought. The eradication of life from a star system in a whisper will be within his power."

And Jerec did get a boost from the Valley of the Jedi when fighting Kyle, yet Kyle still defeated him even with no real training. And, Jerec was also viewed as one of the galaxy's biggest threats.

He also defeated six other fully trained Jedi. Boc, who used dual lightsabers, and used an unorthodox style. Pic and Gorc, who were described as: "Pic is the energy and Gorc, the counter. They are the clashing balance of opposites: one, the voice; the other, the body. This combination is deadly."

Sariss, who was also a master in lightsaber combat, "Out of all the Dark Jedi I have met, Sariss is the one I can say I fear. Powerful, strong in both the physical and mental arenas of the Force, she is a master, a perfectionist, quiet and reserved. This makes her a very dangerous foe."

Yun, who was young and somewhat inexperienced, but nonetheless powerful, "These elements make him a dangerous and unpredictable foe." Then you have Maw, who's only half a body anyways, lol, but is still described as a "strong and formidable foe".

So, it would seem that the seven Dark Jedi Kyle faced weren't average, and were all described as being powerful. We know Jerec is the most powerful out of all of them, and still Kyle beat him.

he did this with little training.

Katarn was able to progress hugely far with no training at all in a tiny amount of time, whereas Bane had training and months of time.

honestly, with that recent revelation, i may have to place katarn somewhat high in the pantheon of great jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sirak was thought to be the Sith'ari he was so powerful and the 'weakness' in his form was that he wasn't used to long battles because he wins every fight too quickly. The man has some props.

Been awhile since I read those novels but wasn't it a very big plot point that the Sith of the Brotherhood were weak?

Anyway, Sirak was merely a very talented Sith apprentice. Plenty of the lords such as Kas'im and Kaan seemed to be well above his level.