Yoda vs. Kas'im (saber duel)

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
You should really try substantiating what that quote even means before you continuously throw it out like that. I submit that Sirak was even more impressive than the masters you listed,

😆

Sirak couldn't even generate more than a few sparks of lightning.

He's extremely powerful for his position - an academy apprentice. The trio taken down by Palpatine were among the greatest duelists in the order's 25,000 year long history.

he was the greatest of the students at the academy aside from Bane,

He was a student. These three were legendary Jedi masters.

and Kopecz later remarked that the students of the Academy were the most powerful warriors the BoD had,

No, he didn't. He remarked that they were their strongest students, and more capable than "half" of the "so-called" dark lords on Ruusan. Note that the "so-called" turn of phrase implies that Kopez is denigrating the sith masters as much as he's praising the apprentices.

Indeed, Bane himself has made it clear his belief that the Brotherhood of Sith were weak, not only in belief but also in power, due to spreading the dark side "thin" or whatever. Whether or not he correctly identified the mechanism, his point stands; of this era's sith, only Bane and Kas'im are remotely intimidating.

so it's likely he was one of the strongest warriors of the order, and the manner in which Bane blitzed him was far more impressive, doing it while Sirak was fully immersed in tehir battle and with such a speed that all the other students around them were completely oblivious to what had happened.

LOL, so what? Sidious did this to three high level masters while fighting off Mace Windu. Unless if you're to argue that Sirak is more powerful than the three Jedi Masters combined, your point is utterly useless.

He has caught the lightning of around 30 Sith Lords at once and done so continuously until the power he was containing had reached planetary levels.

😆 This doesn't suggest analogous combative Force ability, bud. Otherwise, I could point out that Plagueis and Palpatine unbalanced the Force itself, and that Yoda was individually actually more powerful then either of them at this point.

In the same way that Yoda would have no experience against a guy with as comprehensive a mastery of all seven forms as Kas'im has, who constantly switches them up in combat.

LOL, wut? Nick Gillard states that Sidious had mastered all lightsaber forms, and the Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia confirms that Yoda has similarly achieved a high level mastery of the entirety of the dueling arts.

Did you really think 8 centuries would not help Yoda in the slightest?

Now, is he on Kas'im level in sheer technical ability? That's debatable. But note that Bane was certainly not even close, given his not even knowing how to deal with jar'kai. Yoda's technical knowledge strips Bane's by lightyears; it possibly outstrips even Dooku's; and his Force abilities are on par with canonically (key word there) the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived.

This wasn't hyperbole; the participants reacted in a manner that would necessitate a literal interpretation of the quote.

...you do realize that I have read the novel, right? Multiple times? Nowhere is it necessary that they interpreted it literally (that is, time literally stopping), but rather that they were shocked by Bane's speed. Big whoop. I would also point out that Bane had saved up months of pent up rage and frustration to unleash in a massive burst of dark side energy; you seem to assume that he fights like this all the time.

So, what you've established is that Kas'im is more powerful than the Bane (who did admit he was not yet a match for the blademaster) who could shock a bunch of apprentices with his speed, and take out an incredibly powerful student.

...how does this lead to "Kas'im > Yoda"?

Yoda has jumped around Dooku and Sidious; do you think Sirak compares to them? Unarmed, he has evaded attacks from three council masters; do you think Sirak is greater than them?

he was the top student, and the students were declared the most powerful members of the order.

Yoda was the top Jedi throughout the Old Order's entire history.

Largely because Bane was perfectly familiar with his tehniques, where it became a contest of who was the more powerful.

Right. And as Yoda is perfectly familiar with all seven lightsaber forms, it will come down to the same here, except that Yoda has the advantage of an unfamiliar stature, and the far larger advantage of strength in the Force virtually unmatched in the mythos.

He was both by the end of PoD, the fastest learner and one of the most powerful, grounded enitities in SW history. His feats have far surpassed Yoda's in sheer scale, and that's if we ignore Yoda's G-Canon limitations.

Nope. Bane is a fast learner, I'll give you that; but I'd quickly take away that this is irrelevant, since we're debating power, not potential. Kas'im may be a skilled warrior, but we've seen what happens when he encounters a warrior familiar with his movements and superior in the Force (Bane). And there's no jar'kai trick to pull on Yoda.

Originally posted by ares834
Been awhile since I read those novels but wasn't it a very big plot point that the Sith of the Brotherhood were weak?

Anyway, Sirak was merely a very talented Sith apprentice. Plenty of the lords such as Kas'im and Kaan seemed to be well above his level.

The only implication of that I could see was: '"There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood," he went on. "Too many who are weak in the dark side. Kaan doesn't understand this."

And that they weren't paying attention to the Ancient Sith's examples anymore.

They seem good enough in terms of combat skills to me though.

how can you POSSIBLY argue that kas'im > yoda? my god...

Originally posted by Master Han
😆

Sirak couldn't even generate more than a few sparks of lightning.

Couldn't or wouldn't? It's entirely plausible he was focusing his power through fewer strands.

He's extremely powerful for his position - an academy apprentice.

Semantics bro. Those apprentices were the most powerful members of the order, as I have pointed out.

The trio taken down by Palpatine were among the greatest duelists in the order's 25,000 year long history.

No.

He was a student. These three were legendary Jedi masters.

Still no.

No, he didn't. He remarked that they were their strongest students, and more capable than "half" of the "so-called" dark lords on Ruusan.

No.

“They are mere apprentices,” Kaan protested.

“They are the strongest of our order,” Kopecz reminded him. “We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan.”

Note that the "so-called" turn of phrase implies that Kopez is denigrating the sith masters as much as he's praising the apprentices.

It's all relative.

Indeed, Bane himself has made it clear his belief that the Brotherhood of Sith were weak, not only in belief but also in power, due to spreading the dark side "thin" or whatever.

Bane's commentary was with regards to their philosophical differences and the consequences their methods had on the darkside from a cosmic standpoint, not on their skills or combat prowess. We have no reason to believe that the strength of the darkside itself had any impact on their own personal access to power; the grander battle between the light and the dark and things like the will of the Force seem to impact individuals in more of an arbitrary way or have more of a direct influence over fate or destiny. Individual power appears to be based more on local access to Force energies and the only manner in which larger scale entities would impact that seem to be things like nexus.

LOL, so what? Sidious did this to three high level masters while fighting off Mace Windu. Unless if you're to argue that Sirak is more powerful than the three Jedi Masters combined, your point is utterly useless.

Well he blitzed the two Jedi indvidually, not all of them at the same time. Its not like you multiple each Jedi's reaction speed by 4 just because they're accompanied by three other Jedi.

😆 This doesn't suggest analogous combative Force ability, bud. Otherwise, I could point out that Plagueis and Palpatine unbalanced the Force itself, and that Yoda was individually actually more powerful then either of them at this point.

This comparison is absurd. The method Bane used is one that is routinely used in combat, and he did so under the same circumstances he might fight himself in a more hostile engagement. That they had an intent of cooperation is irrelevant next to the physical effects their lightning would have had.

LOL, wut? Nick Gillard states that Sidious had mastered all lightsaber forms, and the Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia confirms that Yoda has similarly achieved a high level mastery of the entirety of the dueling arts.

Remind me where Nick Gillard could ever be considered a valid source. Assuming you're correctly sourcing something that actually exists, I'll note that there are numerous sources that indicate that Yoda sparred extremely rarely and that there were even durations of years where nobody even saw him wield a lightsaber (Power of the Jedi).

There's also a world of difference between having mastered all seven forms, and actively using all of them and routinely blending them together in battle. Whether Yoda has mastered all seven forms or not, he is described as exclusively utilising Ataru in battle. Kas'im's mastery of all seven forms does not end at usage with a single lightsaber either.

Now, is he on Kas'im level in sheer technical ability? That's debatable.

No it is not.

...you do realize that I have read the novel, right? Multiple times? Nowhere is it necessary that they interpreted it literally (that is, time literally stopping), but rather that they were shocked by Bane's speed. Big whoop.

I was not referring to the part about time stopping, I was referring to the fact that he moves so fast that he was practically invisible. It's not only the text that describes as much but it's affirmed by how people around him react to his movements.

I would also point out that Bane had saved up months of pent up rage and frustration to unleash in a massive burst of dark side energy; you seem to assume that he fights like this all the time.

What are you on about lol? The text in no way even allows the idea that he had been gathering energy for months for that one duel...

Yoda has jumped around Dooku and Sidious; do you think Sirak compares to them?

Forgive me if I'm not blown away by him jumping up and down next to them.

Unarmed, he has evaded attacks from three council masters; do you think Sirak is greater than them?

In a demonstration to the padawans that could have well been scripted. This was also a demonstration of precogntion, not speed btw, it's explicitly stated that his "tread was slow and measured" and the point of the excercise was how mastery of the force was infinitely more valuable than battle prowess.

Yoda was the top Jedi throughout the Old Order's entire history.

No.

Right. And as Yoda is perfectly familiar with all seven lightsaber forms, it will come down to the same here, except that Yoda has the advantage of an unfamiliar stature, and the far larger advantage of strength in the Force virtually unmatched in the mythos.

Perfectly familiar? At best you have vaguely referenced sources that state he mastered all seven. Hardly the equivalent of Kas'im mastering all seven forms for all three primary styles of lightsaber, and then taking immense steps to perfecting ever form, routinely maintaining his skills, and switching between the forms at will in combat. I'm sorry but your vague, likely inaccurate references to Yoda mastering all seven forms, but still limiting his arsenal to Ataru, and very rarely maintaining his skills via sparring, is hardly comparable.

Nope. Bane is a fast learner, I'll give you that; but I'd quickly take away that this is irrelevant, since we're debating power, not potential.

I'll repeat that I am not referring to Bane's potential, but what his potential would suggest about his actualised ability, which is very much relevant.

Kas'im may be a skilled warrior, but we've seen what happens when he encounters a warrior familiar with his movements and superior in the Force (Bane). And there's no jar'kai trick to pull on Yoda.

We've seen what happens when he faces someone who's familairity with his techniques, Yoda certainly cannot be said to possess, and who's strength is the Force, Yoda's does not even approach if we go by G-Canon limitations.

you are a fool to dismiss canon and say that yoda isnt most powerful jedi besides luke. you're also a complete fool to, yet again, dismiss canon by saying the masters brought with windu were not some of the best in the order's history

LOL @ ?YLLAER's responding to explicit G canon sources with a simple "no".

LOL @ ?YLLAER's dismissing Nick Gillard, the chief lightsaber choreographer and the "inventor" of said seven forms, being an unreliable source.

Really, it's infuriating to debate someone who can't muster a rebuttal to outright statements of canon fact with anything more substantive than:

No.

Still no.

No.

It's stuff I've already provided rebuttals for. It's infuriating that you continuously repeat them, and the last "No." was accompanied by a quote in italics and everything.

yoda is infinitely better with the blade than kas'im could possibly imagine (and that's barely even hyperbole)

Eh.

Kas'im might be more skilled than Yoda imo.

i cant see kas'im ever beating yoda in a blade battle

Might? MIGHT? MIGHt? MIGHT?

Well Yoda was a full master of all lightsaber forms.

Originally posted by ?YLLAER
It's stuff I've already provided rebuttals for. It's infuriating that you continuously repeat them, and the last "No." was accompanied by a quote in italics and everything.

LOL, you "countered" the trio's accolades by designating them as too vague. The answer "no" suggests that said accolades are flat out wrong, or do not exist. Especially since I was stating them as facts and not directly drawing conclusions in the relevant text.

The fact is that Yoda:

1. Has a greater command of the Force than Kas'im.
2. Has an unorthodox stature.
3. Has mastered all seven lightsaber forms to a greater degree than PoD Bane.

Bane had only superior Force skills and faintly comparable technical mastery, and he was driving the blademaster back. Yoda has the edge in practically every conceivable category. I might give Kas'im better technical knowledge; but it won't be enough, any more than it would be enough against Bane.

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Your primary counter-arguments:

1. Bane has greater speed feats than Yoda - again, you're assuming that Sirak > the trio, based on literally nothing but dismissing accolades you find inconvenient and parroting even vaguer ones in Sirak's favor. As powerful as he may be,

he had just learned Force lightning and could only generate a few sparks.

He's an apprentice. That he is more powerful than many (weak) sith masters is irrelevant; AotC Anakin is more powerful than many Jedi Masters, but he would get tooled effortlessly by Kit Fisto.

2. Kasi'm has greater technical mastery than Yoda - even if this were true, it's to a significantly smaller degree than he had against Bane...and he needed to pull out jar'kai to get the advantage. You're trumpeting a very minor technical edge over Yoda's massive advantage in the Force.

3. ...that's it.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, you "countered" the trio's accolades by designating them as too vague. The answer "no" suggests that said accolades are flat out wrong, or do not exist. Especially since I was stating them as facts and not directly drawing conclusions in the relevant text.

The fact is that Yoda:

1. Has a greater command of the Force than Kas'im.
2. Has an unorthodox stature.
3. Has mastered all seven lightsaber forms to a greater degree than PoD Bane.

Bane had only superior Force skills and faintly comparable technical mastery, and he was driving the blademaster back. Yoda has the edge in practically every conceivable category. I might give Kas'im better technical knowledge; but it won't be enough, any more than it would be enough against Bane.

------

Your primary counter-arguments:

1. Bane has greater speed feats than Yoda - again, you're assuming that Sirak > the trio, based on literally nothing but dismissing accolades you find inconvenient and parroting even vaguer ones in Sirak's favor. As powerful as he may be,

[b]he had just learned Force lightning and could only generate a few sparks.

He's an apprentice. That he is more powerful than many (weak) sith masters is irrelevant; AotC Anakin is more powerful than many Jedi Masters, but he would get tooled effortlessly by Kit Fisto.

2. Kasi'm has greater technical mastery than Yoda - even if this were true, it's to a significantly smaller degree than he had against Bane...and he needed to pull out jar'kai to get the advantage. You're trumpeting a very minor technical edge over Yoda's massive advantage in the Force.

3. ...that's it. [/B]

The "No."s were in response to the implicit point you were making, not the existence of the quote.

Right. 🙄 Because being a powerful apprentice puts you above three extraordinarily powerful Jedi Masters...because you say so?

He had just learned lightning, for f*ck's sake!

Note that Ploo Koon impulsively generated electric judgment out of his arse. These masters are out of his league here, just like how they're out of even AotC Anakin's league. He had enormous potential - too bad he picked the wrong guy to mess with.

[Darth Sexy]No..[/Darth Sexy]

damn, the ignorance to believe sirak > agen kolar/saesee tiin/kit fisto

Is Kas'im near light speed?
Is Bane near light speed?
Is Sirak near light speed?

No-one is near lightspeed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No-one is near lightspeed.