The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...

@Temp, yeah that was a joke regarding his annoyance of Sidious being one of the most powerful sith, it wasn't an attempt to get the debate going again, when in fact, I don't really feel like debating.

@SM, let me start out by saying, I don't give two shits about gaining your respect. Let's get that clear. You're giving yourself far too much credit if you think I do. lol

As far as your scans go, most of your arguments to the link you gave me, I've addressed them with Nai, which is why I asked you to read over them, which you didn't want to do, which is your problem, but don't call me lazy because of something you are unwilling to do. Hell, responding to your link point by point would result in a lengthy message, so I don't see what the problem is in reading the arguments I've already posted in this very thread.

Furthermore, you did not address my question to DP. All you did was give an answer as to why Yoda lost to Sidious, which isn't what I was asking. That Sidious retreated to the rising podium in order to gain an upper hand, which was to put his force abilities to better use in the senate arena, is something I agreed to. But the podium definitely wasn't something that gave Sidious any advantage in the saber duel. In fact nearly falling over the edge of the podium was what caused Sidious to drop his saber. Yes Yoda's ferocious attack nearly sent Sidious over the edge, but on even ground there would have been no edge to nearly fall over, as Sidious would have far more room to leap away. Yes, Sidious took a risky route in directing the saber duel to the rising podium, but it's one that worked out anyway. Sidious held his own against Yoda in a straight saber duel despite being in a very disadvantageous position, with hardly any room to maneuver and having to rely almost solely on his saber to defend against Yoda's attacks, while his opponent, Yoda, being a lot smaller, had plenty of room to utilize his acrobats to do circles around Sidious. Yet even when Yoda's assault nearly caused Sidious to go over the edge of the podium, Sidious quickly recovered from nearly going over and dropping his saber by retaliating with a blast of lightning all before Yoda could finish off an unarmed Sidious. Sidious survived a saber duel with Yoda, despite being in a position of disadvantage, but he had an answer to losing his saber. You can ignore Sidious' disadvantages on the podium all you like, but they're still there. You can come up with an excuse as to why Sidious retreated to the podium, but the excuses do not take those advantages away.

So again, what makes you so certain that Sidious wouldn't do as good on equal ground, when he was more than capable of surviving despite his position of disadvantage on the podium? Yes, Sidious had a higher chance of defeating Yoda in the senate arena because of the pods he can use against Yoda, which is how he did nearly overwhelm Yoda, causing Yoda to lose his balance at one point. This is the most probable reason why Sidious retreated to rising podium to get to the arena. It definitely couldn't be to give him any advantage in the saber duel, considering that the podium limited him in room to maneuver far more than it did his opponent. But Sidious' decision to retreat to the senate arena in order to put his force powers to better use, doesn't mean Yoda would have defeated him on equal ground.

As for the pod sequence, no I didn't respond to it when you wanted me to, but that doesn't excuse your inability to address my argument when it arrived. You were reaching considerably, and I addressed why, which you still didn't attempt to refute. Sidious easily hurled three senate pods over his head on the dime against the force of gravity, but your excuse was that Sidious had the engines on (or whatever). Ok, so he uses the force to forcefully rip the pods out of their restraints (which you can see the sparks to prove they were forcefully ripped out), and then suddenly decides to manipulate the controls and turn the engines on? And the pod Yoda caught, did Yoda decide to turn the machine off in order to impress Sidious? You wasn't being reasonable at all. Neither Yoda nor Sidious was using the force to manipulate the controls or engines of the pods, they both hurled them against the force of gravity, except Sidious was able to do so with three. The reason why Yoda was hardpressed to handle one was obviously because of the force it required to stop the machine coming down on him at great speed. As for Sidious choosing to evade Yoda's redirected pod instead of catching it, is not proof that he was unable to any more than Yoda choosing not to absorb Sidious' first lightning attack (instead choosing to attempt to block with one hand) means that Yoda was unable to, especially considering the ease in which Sidious was handling the pods earlier. You can see that Sidious didn't even attempt to catch the pod, just like Yoda didn't attempt to absorb Sidious first lightning assault.

All in all, you still didn't refute anything I said. Instead you tried to justify why you attacked my username, and accused me of being petty just because I called your arguments silly. The one who's butthurt, is you. And today it took a few words on my part to spark anger in you, which caused you to rehash your same silly arguments--still not addressing my question.

I just recently addressed Sidious' and Yoda's last lightning sequence with Nai. If you choose not to read it then that's on you. Yoda's redirected lightning blast didn't do anything to Sidious other than blast him and Yoda apart, ending the fight in a stalemate. The source I provided stands, and it fits perfectly with how the movie depicted the fight: Sidious proved too powerful for Yoda to defeat. Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious in a saber duel despite Sidious being in a position of disadvantage, because Sidious had an answer to being disarmed. Yoda was almost overwhelmed by Sidious hurling multiple senate pods at him. Yoda's final attack only blasted them apart, it didn't defeat Sidious. So how would Yoda have had a better chance in defeating Sidious on equal ground? Is it because Sidious wouldn't have pods to use against him? That's not proof Yoda had better chance on defeating him on even ground. Is it by Yoda being a more skilled saber duelist? Well if that's the case, why couldn't he defeat Sidious when Sidious was in a position of disadvantage?

Until you can address everything (well the important parts anyway) instead of continuing with your desperate reaching, then I'm not interested in hearing anymore of your lame BS you call an argument.

And who did you brutally destroy? GTFOH

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
ANGRY STUFF

I didn't even read that drama session. But the picture immediately came to mind.

To avoid making everyone else miserable, yes, yes, I'll stop being baited further. But that picture was quite appropriate, you must agree.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where's this quote from? I'm almost certain it was NG who said you're a sucker if you think you've got the better of him.

I think the lesser intellectual beings on this forum figured out the best way to "win" a debate is to keep on typing, and making sure it's long, drawn out paragraphs, regardless of coherence, until the other person just says "I don't care anymore".

Sidious' arguments are actually really well explained and are valid views. If you disagree that's fine, but the name-calling and derisive tone used because you don't like what he is saying is really childish, especially for people who I'm assuming are in their 20's.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

I didn't even read that drama session. But the picture immediately came to mind.

To avoid making everyone else miserable, yes, yes, I'll stop being baited further. But that picture was quite appropriate, you must agree.

Just last night you worked up the nerve to waste time in copying and pasting arguments of yours which were addressed and arguments of mine which were not, and then considered it brutally destroying someone? 😆

Basically you expect me to read the link you sent me which was several posts worth of arguments, but you're unwilling to read anything I have to say? That's fine.

BTW, either you did read my post or you were just scared to because you don't want to be wrong on the issue. But as I said, that's fine, but your picture doesn't help hide the fact that you're just a wuss.

Originally posted by oaa
Sidious' arguments are actually really well explained and are valid views. If you disagree that's fine, but the name-calling and derisive tone used because you don't like what he is saying is really childish, especially for people who I'm assuming are in their 20's.

Thanks oaa.

But psmith is just a troll who doesn't know how debating works. He just pops in and out and says "so and so stomps" and considers that owning someone in a debate.

BTW, I actually didn't mean for my post to be that long, but I was tired and I couldn't tell if I was getting my point across clear enough.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I think the lesser intellectual beings on this forum figured out the best way to "win" a debate is to keep on typing, and making sure it's long, drawn out paragraphs, regardless of coherence, until the other person just says "I don't care anymore".

That sounds reasonable. Let me try.

I don't care anymore.

Now let's talk about something else in a thread that isn't a testament to birth control for someone's parents.

Jeez, you're being such a prick SM. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jeez, you're being such a prick SM. 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm all for snark, but not genuine anger.

I'm seriously wondering whom you are talking about. While I might sound pretty agressive most of the time, I'm rather sitting in front of my PC with some tea and occassional vanilla tabacco being perfectly calm. I save my anger for the Autobahn.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't know what Nai's deal is beyond a deep-seated personal hatred for all things Gideon.

🙄
You're not even remotely important enough for me to generate any emotional response, other than occasional facepalms, if you see them as such. I'm truely sorry to disappoint.

@Sidious 66

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it means I was lazy in coming up with a username; I just signed up to post my opinions. I wasn't trying to be creative. Sorry for not taking certain things as seriously as you do.

So it's your lazyness that spreads to your thinking and the contents of your postings. Nice to have that one sorted out.

I argue mostly for Sidious I admit to that, but that's my prerogative and my business.

Thanks for proving my point?

If you don't like it then you don't have to respond to it, yet you do anyway. In fact, as I said numerous times, you argue against Sidious more than I argue for him. You also make more anti-Sidious arguments despite there being hundreds of character in the mythos.

*Sigh*
When people use the phrase "in fact", it would be marvelous if something even remotely resembling a fact would follow. In this case, it doesn't. In fact I haven't been posting on this forum between January and September 2013. In fact, before that, my absense almost lasted from July to December 2012 (and before that, from January to May). So in fact I'm not even here to argue as much as you - apparently - want me to.

And even then, I merely react. There is hardly a thread in this forum, in which Sidious isn't featured. If he isn't part of the starting post already, some issue regarding Sidious comes up, and I just reply. I have neither started any thread with the intention of Sidious losing, nor did I start many of the "Sidious debates" going on in this forum.

In fact, my personal thought on the issue of Sidious standing relative to his fellow Sith Lords is not as far away from you or Gideon as you may think. But I arrived there from a quite different angle, which is not applicable in the context of versus fights, and most of the reasoning the duo of yourself and Tempest presents here is an insult to every halfway intelligent person.

Finally: I'm here for the sake of arguments. I don't care about changing people's opinion. I'm just practicing my English here, in combination with analysis based on deconstruction. The results? Not important. Existing opposition is. So, and I asked Gideon this question several times before: What should I do? Argue in favor for Sidious and give the Sith Lord another mouthpiece here? Hardly.

I think it's more normal, and I'm pretty sure most would agree, to put more effort in arguing for a character you really like than it is to put more effort in arguing against a character you hate. Majority of your posts in the vs sections are on Sidious related topics--arguments against him. Hell, the other day Temp just posted some comments from Filoni regarding Sidious, and you appeared out of nowhere criticizing the way Filoni handle the fight (which he handled it very good), suggesting that Filoni didn't do his job in showcasing Sidious superiority over the bros just because he didn't blitz them over wave his hand and disintegrate Mauls legs.

And here, confirmation bias clearly takes it's toll.
I've said that Filoni didn't do a good job, yes. How is that arguing against Sidious? I even said, that there would have been nothing to complain about, had he demolished the Zabrak brothers. I even made suggestions how that ridiculous amount of ownage could have been depicted, to make Sidious appear godlike. How is that arguing against the character?

Which is, by the way, nothing I do. I argue against your reasoning which you utilize as basis for putting Sidious on a pedestal. That you appear inable to seperate those things is quite alarming.

You were also once called out on why you don't treat arguments the same regarding other character, and you claimed that the arguments for them come from people who would be a waist of time, suggesting that those posters were stupid. Then you suggest that I'm stupid, yet you constantly argue with me on Sidious related topics, while constantly bringing my username up. Again, if all this doesn't suggest an extreme bias against the character, then IDK what does.

Nope. I weren't "called out". Gideon asserted that this is the case, and after I performed some digging into my posting history, he had that argument crushed so hard, that he didn't dare to pursue this line of thought further. I wonder, why you haven't learned from your brother-at-arms.

Glancing into my posting history, you can find me arguing against the Ancient Sith, against Kun (often represented by IKC). I've sided with Yoda against Kun and Revan, than talked the Jedi Master down again. I've sided with Dooku in some threads and talked him down in others. I've even utilized "pro-Sidious" arguments, in order to argue for Yoda, while attacking the same arguments at the same time in another thread. So what?

And, I see, you have ignored my words again: That I argue you, has nothing to do with yourself. I, frankly, don't care if you change your opinion or see the error of your ways. I'm just here for the fun. And that would by my fun, specifically.

Unlike you, I'm not here to impress or win anyone's heart.

Yeah. That's certainly what I am here for. Hence my generally friendly way of posting. 🙄

Posting here is just something I enjoy doing, not something I'm paid for, and I didn't realize my username would offend people like you. Yes Sidious is my all time favorite character, so I just quickly chose his name when I came upon a SW site. But considering how you take my username far more seriously than I do, suggests that you take the character far more seriously than I do period.

It's pretty funny how you still don't get the point. I'm not "offended" by your username. I find it hilarious. I'm not taking it serious but am laughing about it.

I sling insults to the people who sling insults my way. Yes I can get on your level of being childish.

Nope, sorry. You can't get on my level of being childish. My level of being childish is already head and shoulders about your level of being grown-up.

I addressed all of your arguments. You're the one who failed to address mine, even after I repeated them several times.

Pal. You are dodging an argument right now. You ignored it before, you proclaimed it didn't happen later and - just here and now - you just skip it again. 🙄 Apparently you also deleted our entire discussion from your mind, because otherwise this claim is pretty much inexplainable.

You also suggested that Sidious would have to fight at a bent position while fighting Yoda on equal ground, which I proved you wrong by posting a video of Yoda fighting Someone, who is quite a bit taller than Sidious, that stayed in a straight posture throughout majority of the duel because of the fact that Yoda rarely stays on ground or in one spot for long.

*Sigh*
Sidious would need to bent in order to hit Yoda. Have a look at how close Dooku's blade comes to the Jedi Master. Most of their saber contacts happen in the middle between them despite Dooku's huge reach advantage (as I said before), and Dooku never comes close to hitting Yoda with his blade, because he doesn't bent down. Well. In fact, he does, during their final saber-lock and he does clearly bent forwards there.

The reach disadvantage is always there for Yoda, however, on the podium, being on the higher part, gave Yoda the reach to put his strength in better use by overpowering the Sidious in saber locks.

And again: I did mathematically proof that this is not the case. Would you stop ignoring facts please. On the podium, Sidious reach advantage is 36 to 52 percent greater than on equal ground and Yoda is not on a "higher part" relative to Sidious. Just relative from the ground, which - as I demonstrated - serves nobody but Sidious himself.

As you can see on equal ground, Yoda was struggling more while Sidious was laughing, which aren't things we seen take place on the podium. On the podium Sidious showed more signs of struggle (no laughing whatsoever) than he did on equal ground, while Yoda showed more expressions of confidence on the podium than he did on equal ground.

Wow. You're again trying to argue hard mathematical facts based on your interpretation of character faces and the fact that Sidious was laughing at one point. Do I need to explain to you why that simply doesn't fly?

Yes, on equal ground, Yoda has an option to attack Sidious' lower section, but as I pointed out before, a move like that can be responded to by leaping or jumping away just as Dooku did in DR.

Dooku pulled an elaborated escape plan off, or he would have been cut into pieces sooner or later. The very same faith would await Sidious, if he where to face Yoda on equal ground. May I remind you that he tried to run before the Jedi Master cornered him with his lightsaber out?

You also keep ignoring my question: how is having far less room to maneuver than your opponent not a disadvantage? Sidious barely had room to give ground or leap away on the podium, while Yoda had enough room to freely utilize his acrobats with no effort at all, doing circles around Sidious. Clearly Yoda wasn't as limited.

My bad.
It's getting rather boring to point out the errors in your logic. Firstly: How does Sidious have "less room to maneuver than his opponent". Yoda and him are fighting on the podium and both could manouver there as they liked. So the have the same space for manouvers. That Sidious choses to stay on the low section is only logical due to the advantages that grants to him, but hardly a basis for assuming he was at a position of disadvantage.

And again: Yoda stays close to ground level even when jumping in most of his lightsaber fights. So how does not having access to the aformentioned ground-level not influence him in a negative way?

Even if we assume, that the lack of moving space was a disadvantage for Sidious, everything else was an advantage for him, especially compared to fighting on equal ground. Still, he loses his lightsaber.

And before you come at me again, with the notion, that this won't happen on equal ground, answer one question for me: Why did Sidious drop his lightsaber? Obviously, the weightless weapon wouldn't have cause him to go over the edge, if he hadn't dropped it. So, the logical answer appears to be, that Yoda attacked him with so much power that he almost went over the edge and couldn't keep his weapon in hand. And the latter part could happen everywhere.

lmao, look at you. Desperate reaching again.

What does that even have to do with "reaching"? I'm just offering answers to your "question". Apparently, you don't like the answers. Not my problem, is it?

According to the Star Wars Comics Companion, Yoda could not defeat Sidious because Sidious proved too powerful to defeat. But that quote doesn't really suggest that Sidious defeated Yoda, which I never suggested in the first place, I said that IMO it was a stalemate. There are sources that state Yoda was defeated, but yes you can argue that was because the lightning blast affected him worse than Sidious by throwing him several stories due to being smaller, but does that suggest Yoda would have won if the blast happened on equal ground?

And once more, I can just look in astonishment, how you try to argue facts based on the interpretation of factual evidence from other sources. That's like putting your hand in a flame and keep it there despite excruciating pain, because some book said that fire can't harm you. And what would you call a person who did something like that? 😉

Not to the extent that victory is a guaranteed thing to Yoda. When Sidious was disarmed, he had an answer to losing his saber, which he lost because he nearly fell over an edge by Yoda's ferocious assault, which could have been more easily responded to had there been no edge for Sidious to nearly fall over.

It's logical fallacy time again. That some action happened after another action, doesn't mean, that the later one happened because of the first. Why would Sidious drop his lightsaber because of almost falling from the Podium? Just think about the absurdity of directly linking those two things. Did he need to grap something on the platform with both hands in order to not fall down from it? I'd love to hear how that happened, according to your thoughts.

If you're talking about the lightning sequence, Sidious started out overpowering Yoda, and ended with Yoda overpowering Sidious until he redirected the lightning in a ball of energy which blasted them both apart, thus ending the fight in a stalemate.

What the...
That "ball of energy" was growing between them the entire time. The power-struggle reversed, yes. Apparently, with a better end for Yoda. And on equal ground, Yoda wouldn't have dropped down into the depths a building. They both would have been flung to walls / furniture, much like as it happened at their beginning of their confrontation. Which would probably have led to them duking it out with lightsabers again.

And now ask yourself, what would have happened, hadn't Yoda jumped up from lower ground and lost his lightsaber being instantly greeted with lightning, but kept it in hand, as Mace Windu did. Would Sidious have died under his own lightning being reflected back at him? Would Yoda have stood there, absorbing it with his blade, much like Obi-Wan does to Dooku in AotC, until the Sith Lord wouldn't have been capable of continuing?

Before that, we see Sidious walking towards Yoda, while Yoda was giving off expressions of extreme pain. The only way the disadvantage position affected Yoda, was the blast knocking him several stories. Other than that, Yoda's redirected attack affected Sidious and Yoda evenly, except Yoda fell a greater distance due to his small size.

Exactly. I was just asking myself, where you have seen somebody in a "position of disadvantage" during that lightning sequence.

Seriously, get you some help. Sidious is not real, and OCD can probably become a big problem if not treated.

But you're right, I don't know much about the illness, but I do know a few people who have it, and it has something to do with one being unable to resist certain impulses. In your case, your extreme bias against Sidious is such that you can't resist the impulse in arguing against him no matter how silly you make yourself look.

Thanks for ignoring all I posted and continuing, by posting your own, entirely unrelated thoughts. Must be fun.

Yup, when they are unable to answer my question and instead attack my username.

You got that wrong again, pal. Your questions were answered while your username was attacked. That you apparently blacked out everything you didn't like there and jumped on that single point is not surprising, but still quite sad.

Nai
🙄 You're not even remotely important enough for me to generate any emotional response, other than occasional facepalms, if you see them as such. I'm truely sorry to disappoint.

Get some different gifs! You've overused that one.

No! I love this one!

So now Sidious and Yoda had even room to maneuver on the podium? Yoda freely utilizes his acrobats, doing leaps around Sidious, while Sidious can either take a few steps on lower or higher parts, or just turn around in circles. Anyone who watched the fight should be able to tell Sidious was far more limited. Hell, DP, who isn't even a fan of Sidious didn't even seem to disagree with that. It's something so obvious.

As with SM, there you go again with my username, but any response from me regarding your guys issue with it and the fact that you guys feel the need to point out the obvious, means I'm the one who is butthurt. lmao

Look, my username is not changing. In fact, I might put a nice pic of Sidious as my avatar sometime later.

BTW, you seem to be the only one who finds my username funny. lol

He finds it funny, the rest of find it sad.

I find it sad that you consider your own wife an insult.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Hell, DP, who isn't even a fan of Sidious didn't even seem to disagree with that. It's something so obvious.

I never agreed that either Yoda or Sidious were at a disadvantage. All I said was that Sidious dropping his Saber due to his position was initially Arhael's argument which I just found an interesting point. But since we're not even shown the scene it's difficult to decipher what exactly happened.

I've always seen Sidious vs Yoda as being fairly even and never really speculated on who had the more advantageous position. Apart from when Sidious had the high ground of course.

I find it sad that you consider your own wife an insult.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So now Sidious and Yoda had even room to maneuver on the podium? Yoda freely utilizes his acrobats, doing leaps around Sidious, while Sidious can either take a few steps on lower or higher parts, or just turn around in circles. Anyone who watched the fight should be able to tell Sidious was far more limited. Hell, DP, who isn't even a fan of Sidious didn't even seem to disagree with that. It's something so obvious.

Are you really that dense?

They are both fighting on a confined space. That one of them either choses or is forced to fight on less of that space than his opponent is irrelevant to that fact. Sidious could have utilized the sides of the podium, just as Yoda did. But either he didn't want to do so, because the advantages the middles position offered to him. Or he was forced to stay in that middle position, because Yoda was the superior fighter.

As with SM, there you go again with my username, but any response from me regarding your guys issue with it and the fact that you guys feel the need to point out the obvious, means I'm the one who is butthurt. lmao

Look, my username is not changing. In fact, I might put a nice pic of Sidious as my avatar sometime later.

BTW, you seem to be the only one who finds my username funny. lol

Thanks for ignoring two posts worth of arguments, to come back to the issue of your username again. And that in a way completely unrelated to my posting. Not that I predicted something like that happening. Oh, wait. I actually did:

"Your questions were answered while your username was attacked. That you apparently blacked out everything you didn't like there and jumped on that single point is not surprising, but still quite sad."

Rinse and repeat.