Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't a gapping hole... Vaapad giving mace more stamina doesn't contradict Mace almost being overwhelmed by Sids lighting. Those things aren't mutually inclusive. That's like saying.. a boxer was clearly tired because he was struggling to stay standing after gettnig hit with bombs.. no.. it had nothing to do with Stamina and all to dowin with the powerful punches he was taking. Same thing here... Sids powerful lighting was making Mace work and struggle a lot not to be taken out by it... That has very little to do with stamina. The same novel you quote mentions how the Mace is constantly feeding of the energies of the emperor to replenish his energies.What does the emperor saying he's too weak to continue and not being too weak to continue have to do with this discussion. I don't remember ever saying the emperor didn't have something left.. we're told he did by Lucas himself. That though, again, has nothing to do with Mace increasing his stats including stamina and speed through the energies of a DSider
Not a gapping hole, but certainly a gaping one.
Your original post clearly stated that “the opponent isn’t [getting a stamina increase from Vaapad] and will get tired sooner”. Your words, not mine. Leaving to one side for a moment the fact that you have provided no authority for your stamina-enhancing claim in the first place (the novel certainly does not lend credence to your assertion), the quote I referred to clearly contradicts your statement. Mace had ”no strength left”. Translation: he was tired. You explicitly asserted that Windu’s opponents will get tired sooner, and I have provided a clear example of that not being the case.
Now what I would like to see from you is (1) evidence that Vaapad does indeed increase the stamina of the person wielding it; and (2) an example of where, because of Vaapad, Mace was given an advantage on the basis of his opponent become exhausted - and a tangentially related boxing analogy will not be sufficient. Please, I am genuinely interested. I do not have any EU literature in front of me to draw from bar the novelisation. But I shall not get my hopes up, as you are a perennial vessel of disappointment.
Well, let's see:
Lighstaber skills and techniques:
Acording to LoE, Yoda: DR and some others sources that I didn't remember, they were equaly skilled with a lightsabers. I personaly believe, that in Shatterpoint Windu finally mastered his Vaapad to a highest degree. And all those sources have happened after SP. So i believe, that near to ROTS they were about equal, and before SP Dooku was a bit better.
Windu's favourite style is ofcourse Vaapad. I have a bit different opinion about that style then many of you, I guess. I'll show you my point:
I agree, that Vaapad was the best weapon against Sidious. But against others darksiders? I'm not sure. It'sa a BS for me, that Windu could feed himself on darksiders. He could feed himself on his own darkness (joy from fight, anger - all those feelings that jedi should control). He could also feed himself on dark side sources (like "dark side nexus" - it means source of the dark side, like on Vjun, right?).
So why I think, that Vaapad will work against Sidious more, then against others darksiders? Well, it's the fact, that I believe that Sidious on his own is some kind of "dark side nexus". For example:
Depowered lampdisks were rings of ghostly gray floating inthe gloom. The shimmering jewelscape of Coruscant haloed theknife-edged shadow of the chair.
This was the office of the Chancellor.
Within the chair's shadow sat another shadow: deeper,darker, formless and impenetrable, an abyssal umbra so profoundthat it drained light from the room around it.
And from the city. And the planet.
And the galaxy.
So, Mace was feeding himself more on Sidious' "dark aura", then on Sidious.
About Count... well I just agree with this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CgSV7Xans 00:26:20
The force:
Dooku clearly has the advantage, but i don't think that this advantage will help him much against Mace. His force mastery let him deal with weaker enemies, like kenobi, Bulq with ease. He's much more succesluf in that kind of fights then Mace, but I dont think that it would help him against Mace.
Physical abilities:
Dooku is older, weaker. Mace is stronher, and has much better stamina, I guess. But is he faster? I don't think so. Is he more agily? I believe that not. For me Dooku is a bit more agily. For example his landing after this kick from Skywalker (ROTS).
So, for me:
Mace = Dooku in sabers, but since I believe that Dooku's Makashi is best counter aganst Mace's Vaapad, I give a small edge to Dooku.
Mace < Dooku in the force. But in this fight between them, Dooku's advantage is just a theory. If Mace wont do a mistake, Dooku's powers will be useless, so its more like Mace = Dooku (only in this fight ofcourse).
Pshysical abilities... I'll give an advantage to Mace. But if fight wont be so long, its again, more like a tie.
I bet Dooku as a winner, about 55-45.
Originally posted by Zett
About Count... well I just agree with this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CgSV7Xans 00:26:20
That is a good breakdown and analysis imo.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except Mace's boost only makes him equal to the combatant he is facing. And since he and Dooku are so damned even the boost he'd get from Vaapad is minimal. Also for decades Sidious wasn't just a master of the Dark Side, but he was an embodiment of the Dark Side himself. So naturally Vaapad would give Windu an unimaginable boost. This is the guy who with Plagueis waged war against the Force itself and tilted it into the Darkness.Sidious was THE avatar of the Dark. Dooku in comparison is a master of the Dark Side.
Why would you say Vaapad only makes Mace his equal? They are already equals without it. Add Vaapad and shatterpoint and Mace should have the clear edge over Dooku.
I meant the one of their fight, but fine. "Perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal" is hardly clear-cut evidence to say Mace = Dooku. There's also the fact that the Count actually couldn't defeat him and called on his magnaguards for aid.
It's true that Mace during his fight with Palpatine was submerged in Vaapad like he has never been before but this only demonstrates the power Mace is able to harness at his peak point. After a long, hard-fought duel against Dooku, Mace would most likely become submerged by Vaapad, too. Maybe not to the point vs. Sids, but enough to grant him the edge over Dooku. And if this doesn't, then shatterpoint will. Eventually.