[Yoda] was probably going to stumble across Revan and Bane, who were slated to appear in season 3 of Clone Wars during the Mortis arc. They had the characters digitally animated in the CW style and everything before Lucas vetoed it at the last second.
Originally posted by Petrus
Loved the Maul and Opress vs. Palps fight in TCW. Kicked their asses.
Yeah, rivaled only by the previous fight between Maul and Vizsla. Great stuff.
I think TCW should have shown the Jedi council being more concerned on who Sidious was, but it's like they forgot about Dooku's claim in AOTC about a sith lord running the republic. Now granted, Yoda did say that Dooku's words are not to be trusted, but in ROTS, Anakin states that they had been looking for the missing sith lord. But we see hardly any concern in TCW, other than Yoda mentioning that he senses a darker presence than Dooku in one of the episodes.
Also, I wanted TCW to show more on Palpatine and Anakin's close "friendship." They seemed more like associates in the series. But there were a few episodes that I didn't watch, so maybe I missed something.
Originally posted by ares834
TBF, in Obsession she breaks away from Dooku as well. Although, I guess she could join up with him again...
It could have happened after she broke away from him. Dooku may have attempted to recruit/brainwash her again. Seeing as he found her almost dead, it is something he might do.
Originally posted by Petrus
That clears it up. You can't use that fight to prove their 'equality', much less with Vaapad and shatterpoint.
They did seem pretty equal in it. And you don't think Mace was using Vapaad/Shatterpoint in that fight?
And btw in comic books a fight lasting just a few panels is quite normal.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
...?They did, it was called "The Lawless." Filoni basically said it's a love letter to Sidious being a BAMF.
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One of the best fights in Star Wars, IMO.
The Maul vs. Pre Vizsla fight was also beastly. But having a non-Force sensitive face off against a Sith Lord stretches suspension of disbelief...they could at least try to explain how a mandalorian with no precognition and superhuman abilities could stand to someone with reaction times able enough to deflect blaster bolts.
Or at least why Maul never uses telekinesis on him.
Personally, I believe Maul could've simply stormed the place and annihilate Vizsla with the Force without any difficulty, but didn't do so because they wouldn't acquire Mandalorian support. Mandalorians value honor above anything else; Maul needed to give Vizsla an "honourable" defeat. Of course you'll never hear those words coming out of Filoni's mouth.
Originally posted by Petrus
Except that the fight never ended because they were interrupted by Magnaguards, so you can't prove it would've been a stalemate.
And there was nothing to show that Windu was going to win, except for the fact that he was willing to fight to the death to finish Dooku, whilst Dooku clearly would prefer to live.
The fight we saw showed them to be peers. Their sparring contests in the past as well as the quotes in Dark Rendezvous and the Clone Wars Republic Heroes game all imply a level of parity between Dooku and Mace (with possibly Dooku having an edge in fact).
However I do believe Mace might have an edge, but still I believe they're peers. I just think Mace's style is better suited to take on Rage Induced power houses like Sidious or Skywalker, which confuses people into thinking Mace is above Dooku.
Originally posted by Petrus
Personally, I believe Maul could've simply stormed the place and annihilate Vizsla with the Force without any difficulty, but didn't do so because they wouldn't acquire Mandalorian support. Mandalorians value honor above anything else; Maul needed to give Vizsla an "honourable" defeat. Of course you'll never hear those words coming out of Filoni's mouth.
It was explained in the episode that the whole purpose of the fight was to win over Vizsla's men. And Maul never once used TK on him even though we saw Opress levitate and choke Death Watch warriors around with ease in the same damn episode, just seconds and minutes earlier in fact. And I don't see any reason why Vizsla would have better force defenses.
So we don't need Filoni to explain everything.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And there was nothing to show that Windu was going to win, except for the fact that he was willing to fight to the death to finish Dooku, whilst Dooku clearly would prefer to live.
Windu's showing against Sidious is enough to conclude the Count wasn't going to win if he submerged himself in Vaapad. It's true that since Sidious is considerably more powerful than Dooku, his complete submersion made him a more efficient combatant against the Sith Lord and thus it wouldn't be as effective against Dooku. But, Vaapad would at the very least grant him a small edge over him. If you add shatterpoint Dooku simply wouldn't be able to take it.
The fight we saw showed them to be peers. Their sparring contests in the past as well as the quotes in Dark Rendezvous and the Clone Wars Republic Heroes game all imply a level of parity between Dooku and Mace (with possibly Dooku having an edge in fact).
Actually, that comic fight is extremely vague. We can't even tell if they were fighting on par or not. And it doesn't matter if all those implied any level of parity because what we see in RotS outweighs any other form of canon, and we saw Mace defeating the most powerful Sith Lord due to his uncanny abilities (Vaapad and shatterpoint, obviously). The quote in 'Dark Rendezvous' that SKILLZ provided isn't clear-cut evidence that they were equals. Using 'perhaps' isn't conclusive at all. I admittedly don't know about the game, so unless there's something definite there, there isn't anything that makes it absolutely clear Dooku = Mace.
However I do believe Mace might have an edge,
At least we agree on something.
It was explained in the episode that the whole purpose of the fight was to win over Vizsla's men. And Maul never once used TK on him even though we saw Opress levitate and choke Death Watch warriors around with ease in the same damn episode, just seconds and minutes earlier in fact. And I don't see any reason why Vizsla would have better force defenses.So we don't need Filoni to explain everything.
I didn't watch the full episode, to be honest. So you just proved my theory right. 😉
Originally posted by Petrus
Why would you say Vaapad only makes Mace his equal? They are already equals without it. Add Vaapad and shatterpoint and Mace should have the clear edge over Dooku.
They are not equals without Vaapad. They were just stated to be equals. Period. So that includes all of Mace's abilities. So meaning Mace with Shatterpoints and Vaapad was still at best as good as Dooku in sparring and as of DR.
Originally posted by Petrus
Windu's showing against Sidious is enough to conclude the Count wasn't going to win if he submerged himself in Vaapad. It's true that since Sidious is considerably more powerful than Dooku, his complete submersion made him a more efficient combatant against the Sith Lord and thus it wouldn't be as effective against Dooku. But, Vaapad would at the very least grant him a small edge over him. If you add shatterpoint Dooku simply wouldn't be able to take it.
Mace had shatterpoint even when Dooku used to beat him in sparring matches. So it's clear it's not shatterpoint that will give Mace the edge.
Vapaad might give him an edge now where it didn't before since Dooku is a Sith now.
However since they are already pretty equal, I'm really not sure what Vapaad will do to change that.
Originally posted by Petrus
Actually, that comic fight is extremely vague. We can't even tell if they were fighting on par or not. And it doesn't matter if all those implied any level of parity because what we see in RotS outweighs any other form of canon, and we saw Mace defeating the most powerful Sith Lord due to his uncanny abilities (Vaapad and shatterpoint, obviously). The quote in 'Dark Rendezvous' that SKILLZ provided isn't clear-cut evidence that they were equals. Using 'perhaps' isn't conclusive at all. I admittedly don't know about the game, so unless there's something definite there, there isn't anything that makes it absolutely clear Dooku = Mace.
The comic really isn't as vague as you make out. Neither of them were giving ground. And there was certainly no indication that Mace was "kicking ass" or anything even close.
Mace did better against Sidious than even Yoda did. Does that mean Mace would kick Yoda's butt? Of course not. Mace is probably just better suited to take on Sidious. We see these A>B>C arguments failing countless times in SW.
DR doesn't mention "skills" just Saber Prowess. The only other interpretation it could mean is referring to all out combat.
Originally posted by Master Han
One of the best fights in Star Wars, IMO.The Maul vs. Pre Vizsla fight was also beastly. But having a non-Force sensitive face off against a Sith Lord stretches suspension of disbelief...they could at least try to explain how a mandalorian with no precognition and superhuman abilities could stand to someone with reaction times able enough to deflect blaster bolts.
Or at least why Maul never uses telekinesis on him.
If you play KOTOR II, in the duel arena the Mandalorians will duel you if you don't use the force. I thought something similar was going down here.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace had shatterpoint even when Dooku used to beat him in sparring matches. So it's clear it's not shatterpoint that will give Mace the edge.
Sparring matches are hardly comparable to real battles. It's just that. Sparring. It's obvious that neither of the combatants are going all-out on each other. It's not like sparring Mace would sink deep into Vaapad and attempt to cripple Dooku with shatterpoint. A fight to death/capture/severely injure is not going to be similar to a simple sparring match. Besides...
Vapaad might give him an edge now where it didn't before since Dooku is a Sith now.
...Exactly my point. It most definitely will.
However since they are already pretty equal, I'm really not sure what Vapaad will do to change that.
Vaapad uses the opponent's darkness against himself [in this case, Dooku]. It is only logical to assume that Vaapad will give Mace an edge over Dooku, especially since Dooku is a master of the dark side. Add shatterpoint and it just improves Mace's chances further.
The comic really isn't as vague as you make out. Neither of them were giving ground. And there was certainly no indication that Mace was "kicking ass" or anything even close.
I never said Mace would kick Dooku's ass. I'm simply saying he would win against Dooku. It wouldn't be by a lot. But the comic is vague, IMO. It certainly doesn't seem like one of them had the upper hand, precisely because the Magnaguards intervene. We can't use that duel as a point of reference.
Mace did better against Sidious than even Yoda did. Does that mean Mace would kick Yoda's butt? Of course not. Mace is probably just better suited to take on Sidious. We see these A>B>C arguments failing countless times in SW.
Mace only did better against Sidious because of Vaapad and shatterpoint. You know Vaapad works much better against dark siders and you know Yoda doesn't use it. Of course it doesn't mean Mace would kick Yoda's butt. I'm not saying that.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They are not equals without Vaapad. They were just stated to be equals. Period. So that includes all of Mace's abilities. So meaning Mace with Shatterpoints and Vaapad was still at best as good as Dooku in sparring and as of DR.
The quote in "Dark Rendezvous" isn't conclusive. The omniscient narrator uses the word 'perhaps'. 'Perhaps' isn't enough to simply put them on the same level.
Besides, Lucas himself said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. We all know about Lucas's complete lack of interest in the EU, so he most probably wasn't even thinking of Vaapad and shatterpoint when he said it, but his words are the highest form of canon possible [or were, at least], and the fact that Lucas says only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sidious does indeed put Mace above the likes of Dooku.
So, unless there's some other quote besides the one in DR, I don't see them as equals with Mace's amps playing a big role.