Originally posted by throwawaysrs
Your Malcom-apologist argument applies even moreso to Grievous. At least Grievous is superhuman (and among the "most renowned", or infamous, duelists) and has been personally trained by Count Dooku. I could turn your argument on itself and ask you why none of the various sith Malcom bull rushes didn't just snap his windpipe.
Malcom-apologist argument? Why didn't Han Solo and Boba Fett die in so many conflicts and dangerous situations (what is so special about these two)?
I at-least admitted PIS in case of Malcom's performance on Aldeeran. Are you willing to do the same in case of Grievous?
Malcom benefited from his (special) body armor by the way. Also, he would have died on Aldeeran if Satele had not interfered.
Grievous have history of fighting multiple Jedi simultaneously and prevailing. I mean, Jedi are supposed to be superhuman beings too, are they not? More importantly, Jedi have Force powers. And still?
On one occasion, Aayla Secura, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'Kruhk, and Tarr Seirr engaged Grievous in combat and all failed.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
Except clearly not, because Yoda considers Dooku to be "our greatest student", and he's been training Jedi for almost 800 years. Dooku's on a higher level of legendary even than, say, Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto.
My point involves 25,000+ years of history. Their is big difference between 25,000 and 800 years of span. Also, much of that 800 years period represents time of peace during which Jedi grew "out of touch" of their ways. Dooku noticed this development/decline; this is why he eventually left the Jedi Order.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
OOU narrators and encyclopedias, for one.
G-canon characters are central to SW mythos; this is why they receive more hype then their EU equivalents and superiors. If hype is overlooked, Dooku isn't a big thing in the mythos.
Also, revelations in older sources are valid for the content of that time. SWTOR is a recent but very big and ambitious project involving exploration of a big chunk of the lore. Its revelations can be fairly assessed only in the future sources.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
Strawman, did I ever say he was better than all those who came before him? He just has superior feats and vastly superior accolades to the vast majority of the dark council members you assert without evidence to be his peer or superior.
Really?
Vast majority of DKM haven't been explored much in the lore thus far unlike Dooku. But those who have been, do not seem to be inferior then Dooku in the ways of the Force; in-fact, several well-known ones seem to be noticeably superior.
DKM are typically among the most powerful Sith in galactic history by the way. I have posted evidence. Look at it.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
You could make the (weak) case that many of those dark council members could match him in Force ability, should you provide substantive feats/accolades, but none of them have his reputation or demonstrated ability as a "consummate duelist", and your argument basically boils down to "they could be greater than him".
I am working with logical reasoning. Its not necessary for every DKM member to be deeply explored in the lore and get fancy accolades like Dooku did, because that is too much work for the authors at the moment. However, canon sources reveal that it was immensely difficult to become a Sith Lord in Vitiate's Empire; only the mightiest and smartest of the Sith would become Sith Lords in this Empire. Now competition for DKM upped the game even further for these Sith Lords. Fact is that Dooku haven't been tested in ways like these Sith have been; ground realities of his story and era are vastly different in comparison.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
Here we go again; "exceptional" and "among the best of the best" don't put them on Dooku's level. Cin Drallig was certainly "among the best of the best" and a master of all lightsaber forms, but Dooku would easily trash him. Kit Fisto was among the greatest swordsmen of all time, but would stand no chance against Tyrannus.
Individuals such as Dralling and Fisto are useless examples to consider because we have concrete evidence of them being inferior to Dooku, regardless of the accolades they have received. These two individuals are a JOKE in comparison to powerful Sith of Vitiate's Empire as well.
Analogy:-
Sith Lord Pravan doesn't have fancy accolades attached to his name but he have this history:
During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi's most famous duelists–in an epic battle. But he spared Usma's young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master.
Praven isn't a DKM and he is not an exception to the norm either. Speed wise, Praven once blitzed and killed 3 opponents simultaneously in single attempt before they could react. Power wise, even HoT acknowledged Praven as an individual of substantial strength because the latter defeated Jedi Master Kiwiiks in single combat whom HoT knew well in person.
I have repeatedly pointed out before that great technical proficiency in lightsaber dueling or martial arts is not a decisive advantage for a Force-user unless such skill is complemented by decent mastery of the Force. Dralling and Fisto were great martial artists but they sucked in Force mastery aspects. Both of these individuals evidently lost to superior Force-users in duels (Dralling versus Anakin; Fisto versus Sidious). Fisto lost to Ventress as well.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
The burden of proof is on you to establish that relatively featless characters, who are lower in their [canonically inferior] era's totem pole than Dooku is in his own, can match blades with the Count. This burden is not relieved by suggesting they may be "exceptionally skilled", nor is it relieved by speculating that they could be on his level.
I am not part of the administration which owns Star Wars lore, so I cannot offer this "proof" you desire. What I can offer is a logical assessment like I did above.
You "believe" that Dooku would trash all exceptionally skilled duelists that preceded him but I do not agree with this assessment. You offered examples of individuals who are acknowledged as exceptional duelists but are inferior to Dooku to make an argument in favor for the latter but your argument is useless because you overlooked a very important aspect of the inferiority of the examples of exceptional duelists whom you cited; individuals such as Fisto and Dralling are "evidently" inferior to Dooku in their understanding of the ways of the Force. This is not the case with many other exceptional duelists who existed in TOR era.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
And? Dooku explicitly has a high level mastery of the Force, so much that Stover's novelization suggests, when Zone-Anakin is tooling his ass, that defeating his mastery of the Force was a greater feat than overcoming his technical abilities, through use of the word "even".Furthermore, superior Force ability only gives you the victory relative to its magnitude compared to the disparity in technical skill. Case in point; Kas'im w/jar'kai vs. Bane.
Anakin packed immense raw-power which he could sometimes utilize effectively, if in a right frame of mind. Also, some sources depict Anakin demonstrating Dooku level or superior Force abilities. Anakin himself reminded Dooku that his powers have doubled since the last time they met. Some assert that Anakin was a peer of Dooku in Force abilities. In addition, Dooku's loss aboard
Invisible Hand had circumstances attached to it; Dooku was tasked by Sidious to put Obi-Wan out of commission but lure Anakin to the dark side. Dooku just did this and paid the price.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
Feel free to provide feats from these mid-tier council members you think can overwhelm Dooku purely through superior Force power, then. I seem to recall Dooku's having monstrous feats himself.
Check my responses in page 7 for some details.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
George Lucas overrides said authors, though.
GL doesn't interferes with works of EU authors; he is authoritarian of G-canon works only by his own admission.
Also, GL no longer owns Star Wars; he is now an adviser just like other authors.
Originally posted by throwawaysrs
And I'd hold my tongue before claiming your TOR authors are "taking sides" with the intent of elevating their characters above the PT powerhouses; Exar Kun wankers were severely disappointed when KJA went on record putting Kun and his other ancient sith creations "on a firmly lower tier" than Palpatine.
That was decision of KJA; no one forced him to make such a statement at gunpoint or did somebody?
Authors in Star Wars are as much split over promoting their works and glorifying their favorite characters as fans of the lore are. Some authors habitually glorify PT/OT era characters and some authors habitually glorify characters of different eras. Their is no official list of strongest Force-users; their is no official consensus on these matters at all. Fans are left with never-ending arguments on these subjects.
