Anyway Roshi had to exert himself to even stand against Goku yet later on when Goku is stronger Tao does this while barely trying:
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/86/11/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/86/12/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/86/13/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/86/14/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/86/15/
Goku then needed 3 whole days of intense training(not long at all but still) to beat Tao. Seems pretty clear that Tao is far superior to Roshi
Originally posted by juggerman...Which doesn't change anything I said:
Roshi can only hold that form during his ultimate attack(Full power Kamehameha). He hasn't shown it otherwise as far as i know and it pretty much wipes him out. Just because he didn't use his most powerful move doesn't mean he was holding back while fighting. If he missed he would have been screwed
Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the thing: Roshi never used his full power against Goku-- he ONLY reached full power when he destroyed the moon. In fact, Roshi's entire point for fighting Goku was essentially to test him. He wanted Goku to realize that more powerful opponents than him exist-- basically pushing Goku to train harder:
http://i.imgur.com/mckNyt0.pngEither way, I am willing to agree to the following:
Cyber Tao>full-power Roshi>human Tao>21st WMAT kid Goku~base/suppressed Roshi.
Based on what we know, that is logical, and moreover, fair.
Originally posted by Galan007
...Which doesn't change anything I said:
It does since Roshi was not holding back against Goku. It seems like you think since he didn't get diesel and use the full power Kamehameha that he was holding back. That attack is slow, leaves him open, and could have killed not only Goku but the crowd as well. Goku didn't use the spirit bomb against Cell. Was he also holding back? Vegeta didn't use the Final Flash against Buu. Was he holding back too?
Here's more evidence Roshi wasn't holding back against Goku:
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/123/07/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/123/08/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/123/09/
http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/123/10/
As you can see he says he isn't holding back yet he doesn't bulk up which tells us that it is only used for his Kamehameha. Roshi also admits Goku is stronger than him a few times before Tao is in the picture.
Can you post your source for the power levels? Maybe that's Roshi from the end of DB? I could understand him getting stronger after their fight i guess since he did end up training Krillin and Yamcha for years
Originally posted by juggermanI don't think you're understand me correctly...
It does since Roshi was not holding back against Goku.
We know Roshi was holding back against Goku, because the only time he unleashed his full power was when he destroyed the moon. Had his full power kamehameha hit Goku, he would have been destroyed(even as an Oozaru.) Why didn't Roshi use his full power against Goku? Because as Roshi himself stated: he just wanted to test/push Goku to his limits so that he would realize there are people more powerful than himself, and train harder next time. He certainly didn't want to kill or even injure, Goku.
So again:
Cyber Tao>full-power Roshi>human Tao>21st WMAT kid Goku~base/suppressed Roshi.
The PL's I mentioned for full power and base Roshi+Cyber Tao came from the Weekly Shōnen Jump and Daizenshuu. Although I no longer have human Tao's PL on hand, so I must have misremembered what it was. We know it was > 139, but < 180, though.
By the time of the 22nd WMAT, Tien, Roshi, and Goku's PLs were each 180.
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think you're understand me correctly...We know Roshi was holding back against Goku, because the only time he unleashed his full power was when he destroyed the moon. Had his full power kamehameha hit Goku, he would have been destroyed(even as an Oozaru.) Why didn't Roshi use his full power against Goku? Because as Roshi himself stated: he just wanted to test/push Goku to his limits so that he would realize there are people more powerful than himself, and train harder next time. He certainly didn't want to kill or even injure, Goku.
So again:
Cyber Tao>full-power Roshi>human Tao>21st WMAT kid Goku~base/suppressed Roshi.The PL's I mentioned for full power and base Roshi+Cyber Tao came from the Weekly Shōnen Jump and Daizenshuu. Although I no longer have human Tao's PL on hand, so I must have misremembered what it was. We know it was > 139, but < 180, though.
By the time of the 22nd WMAT, Tien, Roshi, and Goku's PLs were each 180.
I don't believe "not using ultimate attack" is the same thing as "holding back". He had a hard time keeping up with Goku while Tao stomped him and made Goku look like crap. Yes Roshi wanted Goku to see that there were stronger beings out there and the only way he could do so was by winning. He tried everything to win and had to struggle to achieve that. Tao on the other hand didn't break a sweat. That alone puts Tao above Roshi. There's nothing indicating Tao used all his power either since he didn't strain or struggle at all
I'm thinking that Roshi improved by the 22nd WMAT since he struggled with Goku earlier but then was even with him after his power jumped by leaps and bounds. So end of DB Roshi was indeed stronger than Human Tao. But Roshi in the 21st WMAT was not.
Originally posted by juggerman
I don't believe "not using ultimate attack" is the same thing as "holding back".
Juggerman, you know I think you're sexy but I think that's exactly what it means.
We get the benefit of hindsight where "battle power" can actually be measured. That particular attack (and a handful of others) allows a fighter to raise his battle power, temporarily. So we actually do know that that particular attack does showcase Roshi's full-power.
As for the rest of the argument, I'll leave that up to you two.
Edit - Roshi could destroy a sizeable chunk of the earth if he can destroy the moon. That's just cray-cray.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Juggerman, you know I think you're sexy but I think that's exactly what it means.We get the benefit of hindsight where "battle power" can actually be measured. That particular attack (and a handful of others) allows a fighter to raise his battle power, temporarily. So we actually do know that that particular attack does showcase Roshi's full-power.
As for the rest of the argument, I'll leave that up to you two.
Edit - Roshi could destroy a sizeable chunk of the earth if he can destroy the moon. That's just cray-cray.
What i mean is would you say Vegeta was "holding back" against Kid Buu just because he didn't use his Final Flash? Or blow himself up? Roshi's attack can be dodged and the opening can be easily taken advantage of. He was trying his best to win and the were pretty even. Plus Roshi, knowing full well about his ultimate attck, wondered a few times if Goku was actually beyond his strength.
I blushed when you called me sexy 😍
Originally posted by juggermanYou're arguing just to argue, and failing to understand my point in the process.
I don't believe "not using ultimate attack" is the same thing as "holding back". He had a hard time keeping up with Goku while Tao stomped him and made Goku look like crap. Yes Roshi wanted Goku to see that there were stronger beings out there and the only way he could do so was by winning. He tried everything to win and had to struggle to achieve that. Tao on the other hand didn't break a sweat. That alone puts Tao above Roshi. There's nothing indicating Tao used all his power either since he didn't strain or struggle at allI'm thinking that Roshi improved by the 22nd WMAT since he struggled with Goku earlier but then was even with him after his power jumped by leaps and bounds. So end of DB Roshi was indeed stronger than Human Tao. But Roshi in the 21st WMAT was not.
Again: this is(and has been for a while now) my conclusion:
Cyber Tao>full-power Roshi>human Tao>21st WMAT kid Goku~base/suppressed Roshi.
...Which you just agreed with.
Originally posted by Galan007
You're arguing just to argue, and failing to understand my point in the process.Again: this is(and has been for a while now) my conclusion:
So again:
Cyber Tao>full-power Roshi>human Tao>21st WMAT kid Goku~base/suppressed Roshi....Which you just agreed with.
I did agree. I'm not arguing end of DB Roshi. I'm arguing that Roshi, at the time of the 21th WMAT, was inferior to Tao when he first fought Goku.
Originally posted by Galan007
...Which is exactly what my power scale implies. none
I know but when this first started you implied that Roshi holding back against Goku was the reason that Roshi would be stronger than Tao and not the fact that he got stronger in later years. So i was trying to point out why Tao would still be stronger than Roshi at that time.
Originally posted by juggermanI agreed some time ago that human Tao>21st WMAT base/restrained Roshi.
I know but when this first started you implied that Roshi holding back against Goku was the reason that Roshi would be stronger than Tao and not the fact that he got stronger in later years. So i was trying to point out why Tao would still be stronger than Roshi at that time.
I only argued that human Tao isn't beating full-power(ie. moon-buster) Roshi.
Originally posted by Galan007
I agreed some time ago that human Tao>21st WMAT base/restrained Roshi.I only argued that human Tao isn't beating full-power(ie. moon-buster) Roshi.
You mean he can't take the attack head on? Cuz Roshi only goes big like that for that attack. He doesn't fight in that form
Originally posted by juggermanThat is exactly what I'm saying.
You mean he can't take the attack head on?
Human Tao didn't show the speed necessary to dodge energy attacks-- especially energy attacks that can be 'ordered' to change direction on the fly, like a kamehameha. So if Roshi powered up to his max and launched said attack at Tao, it would hit its mark, and Tao would be vaporized.
Why? Because full-power/moon-buster Roshi(PL=180)>Human Tao.
Looks like Tien would have lost to Roshi had Roshi fought with everything...
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v09/c125/7.html
Is that relevant to this thread? I know you two were talking about that.
The "fighting like that" in the scan means all-out Roshi would not have been enough to fight Tien:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v09/c125/8.html
At least, that's what I take from those two.
It depends. Cyborg Tao stomps. As for Mercenary Tao is something like this:
22nd Budokai kamesenin>mercenary tao>21sr budokai kamesenin.
It's obvious that kame senin was stronger in the 22nd budokai. First, it was stated during the trials, second it was left pretty clear that he would train for the 22nd budokai when goku left for his around the world travel 3 years before.
Also it was clear that in the 21st budokai kame senin was at his weakest state (maybe lack of practice coupled with old age), since at his prime he was also able to take the "holy water" just like goku did before kicking tao's ass, and also the fact that grandpa gohan was more or less evenly matched with goku post-kicking tao's ass, while it was acknowledge by general consensus that at their best, kame senin was better then grandpa gohan.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Also it was clear that in the 21st budokai kame senin was at his weakest state (maybe lack of practice coupled with old age), since at his prime he was also able to take the "holy water" just like goku did before kicking tao's ass,
Oh ho ho ho! That's some good logic. 👆
So that should settle it, then.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
...and also the fact that grandpa gohan was more or less evenly matched with goku post-kicking tao's ass, while it was acknowledge by general consensus that at their best, kame senin was better then grandpa gohan.
I don't remember it being said that Roshi was better than Gohan but Roshi did state that Gohan was his #1 disciple.
Originally posted by Galan007
That is exactly what I'm saying.Human Tao didn't show the speed necessary to dodge energy attacks-- especially energy attacks that can be 'ordered' to change direction on the fly, like a kamehameha. So if Roshi powered up to his max and launched said attack at Tao, it would hit its mark, and Tao would be vaporized.
Why? Because full-power/moon-buster Roshi(PL=180)>Human Tao.
Well yeah i agree he be destroyed if that attack hit him.
