Akuma vs Demon King Piccolo

To the death in empty Kansas

Originally posted by juggerman
To the death in empty Kansas

As I posted in another thread, King Piccolo stated that he could destroy the whole planet (earth). Since he was significantly stronger than Roshi and Roshi could destroy the moon, it stands to reason that he really could have destroyed the earth.

Akuma, from what I remember, is a city buster, at best. Possibly multi-city buster. It is difficult to remember all of his feats because I feel he is irrelevant these days. uhuh

King Piccolo could've just been talking about killing off the surface. Earth is waaay bigger than the moon (and the DB moon feat is the most inconsistent in the whole series).

Originally posted by dadudemon

Akuma, from what I remember, is a city buster, at best. Possibly multi-city buster. It is difficult to remember all of his feats because I feel he is irrelevant these days. uhuh

Highest end version of Akuma:

Piccolo>Roshi=moon-buster>Akuma.

Imho.

Originally posted by Q99
King Piccolo could've just been talking about killing off the surface. Earth is waaay bigger than the moon (and the DB moon feat is the most inconsistent in the whole series).

I don't believe it is inconsistant.

The dragonballs were used to wish back the moon. The dragonballs are a reflection of the current "Guardian's" powers. Granted. Kami was stronger than King Piccolo because when Goku defeated King Piccolo, he went to Kami's tower to train for 3 years and Kami-Popo were both stronger than Goku.

But, destroying and restoring the moon are seen as parallel, for some reason. Defeating Nappa and Vegeta, with the dragonballs, however, was not within the Dragon's power (they tried that wish).

What I am saying, is: destroying the moon and things the size of the earth appear to be a sub-2000 (or 3000) power level feat for Dragonball.

It took almost everything Roshi had to destroy the moon, however: he said he was almost completely drained after doing it.

I believe I calculated that the earth is ~82 times more massive than the moon, a while back.

Originally posted by Q99
Highest end version of Akuma:

I don't know how much of that is visual and how much of that could be destructive. Since that comet/asteroid busting appears to be mostly visual (or else everyone would have died in that general area caught in that visual blast area), looks like the comet/asteroid would have been a multi-city buster.

Edit - But, I would add that Akuma may be faster than King Piccolo. He may also have the strength reguired to damage KP, as well. That would make this a stomp in favor of Akuma regardless of the destruction KP can put out.

I wonder how DKP would be affected by the shun goku satsu :0?

Should i have gone weaker than Piccolo?

Akuma isn't faster than Picollo or stronger imo.

I don't believe it is inconsistant.

King Piccolo looked tired after a simple city-destroying attack at one point.

And no feat of destruction compares until far later... unless we assume that the DB moon is much smaller and more fragile than ours. Blowing up the moon just seems oddly easy in DB.

Unfortunately, the asteroid busting feat isn't canon since it's from a dream match. Thing is, most of Akuma's feats have been done while holding back so he can still handle a good amount of opposition without that feat. He can beat pretty much any character from One Piece (His ki should have a similar effect haki has for logia users), Naruto (Except for Kurama, Gyuki, and Juubi), and Bleach individually.

Originally posted by Yamcha
I wonder how DKP would be affected by the shun goku satsu :0?

Considering the atrocities Piccolo Daimao has done, his soul would be destroyed by it. If Daimao wants to pull off a win, he'd better avoid CQC with Akuma.

Originally posted by Q99
King Piccolo looked tired after a simple city-destroying attack at one point.

He didn't, actually. He was the exact opposite. He acted like it was a minor issue before stating he could destroy the whole planet:

Here he is, right as the city is destroyed:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v11/c150/7.html

Here they are after the city is destroyed:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v11/c150/8.html

And here King Piccolo is stating that he could destroy the entire planet, if he wanted to, while not looking like he was tired, even slightly:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v11/c150/9.html

Is your mind changed or do you still hold that the moon busting feat was inconsistent?

Ok, so he wasn't tired... but no, the Moon in still massively inconsistent. That's the biggest non-moon destruction feat he did (which was less thorough than Nappa's).

And 'destroying the world' could involve just going around and killing everyone on it.

I don't think you realize just how big our moon is. An attack literally a million times stronger than city-busting would be like unto nothing to the Moon. Nor would an attack that blows the atmosphere of the Earth off (destroying the world by most people's standards!) be near sufficient to destroy it.

I think KP's comment holds weight. After all, he busted a city for show-- that blast certainly didn't represent the sum total of his energy output. You must also consider the fact that certain/most energy attacks can greatly amplify their user's PL(some much more than others), which essentially makes base PLs moot when we start talking about energy attacks.

Heck, look at Piccolo's SBC. Piccolo himself had a PL of 408 when he fought Radditz. His first SBC had a PL of 1,330-- this represents a power increase of 225.9%!

Aside from that, if KP weren't capable of vastly exceeding Roshi's moon-busting feat, I highly doubt that he[Roshi] would have been so effing terrified of his power. /shrug

Ah, I found what I was talking about, a bit later on, he does another city-buster and is tired out by that one.

I think KP's comment holds weight. After all, he busted a city for show-- that blast certainly didn't represent the sum total of his energy output.

I do think the closer to one's claim someone has shown, the more weight it holds. KP hasn't done 1% of his claim. He hasn't done 0.1%.

He has, in fact, not done 0.0001% of his claim.

Planets are *tough*. Moons are *big*.

Aside from that, if KP weren't capable of vastly exceeding Roshi's moon-busting feat, I highly doubt that he[Roshi] would have been so effing terrified of his power. /shrug

But Roshi's power in every other occasion is simply massively out of sync with that one. He, too, has been tired out by far less.

Every feat in DB combined, minus the moon thing, is far, far closer to what I can do than it is to blowing up a moon, scale wise.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, so he wasn't tired... but no, the Moon in still massively inconsistent. That's the biggest non-moon destruction feat he did (which was less thorough than Nappa's).

And 'destroying the world' could involve just going around and killing everyone on it.

It could...but it requires too many assumptions, at that point, to make that claim. Since, by that point, much weaker characters are definitely capable of destroying the moon, it requires fewer assumptions to conclude that a far stronger character could destroy the earth.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think you realize just how big our moon is.

You're telling me this: a former student who maintained a 4.0 at University who was studying for astrophysics?

Lemme put it another way: you're telling me, the poster who calculated how much more massive the Earth is than the moon (about 82 times...a bit less).

Originally posted by Q99
Ah, I found what I was talking about, a bit later on, he does another city-buster and is tired out by that one.

Don't you think you're taking that out of context?

King Piccolo had no long period of rest since even the scans I used. He had been fighting against people for quite a bit, by that point, including Goku. Does it not make more sense that he has used up a lot of energy fighting Goku than it does a blast that falls into his casual range? You'd be correct if he said, "I am really tired after that last blast, but.."

Or...

"You are really tired after that last blast..." if Goku had said it.

Originally posted by Q99
I do think the closer to one's claim someone has shown, the more weight it holds. KP hasn't done 1% of his claim. He hasn't done 0.1%.

We don't need him to: Master Roshi already did it. And Piccolo easily destroyed the moon, too, a bit later on (and he wasn't that much more powerful than King Piccolo, at that point).

Originally posted by Q99
I do think the closer to one's claim someone has shown, the more weight it holds. KP hasn't done 1% of his claim. He hasn't done 0.1%.

He has, in fact, not done 0.0001% of his claim.

Tbh these discussions mostly boil down to logical power scaling. After all, only a few characters in DB/DBZ/DBGT have actually destroyed a planet on panel. We *saw* base Frieza do it. We *saw* Kid Buu do it. Does that mean no other characters throughout the whole of Dragonball were capable of destroying a planet? Obviously not. That is where logical power scaling comes into play: we can assume such a feat is still within the ability of a shit-ton of characters, despite them never having preformed a feat on that scale.

Where KP is concerned, it's like I said before: given Roshi's confirmed status as an insta-moon-buster, it's logical to assume KP was capable of unleashing a vastly more devastating blast, as Roshi was literally frightened of his power. If Roshi were capable of launching a more potent blast than KP, he wouldn't have been worried.

Whether you agree or not, certainly you can see where I'm coming from..?

Originally posted by Q99
But Roshi's power in every other occasion is simply massively out of sync with that one. He, too, has been tired out by far less.

Every feat in DB combined, minus the moon thing, is far, far closer to what I can do than it is to blowing up a moon, scale wise.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think KP's comment holds weight. After all, he busted a city for show-- that blast certainly didn't represent the sum total of his energy output. You must also consider the fact that certain/most energy attacks can greatly amplify their user's PL(some much more than others), which essentially makes base PLs moot when we start talking about energy attacks.

Heck, look at Piccolo's SBC. Piccolo himself had a PL of 408 when he fought Radditz. His first SBC had a PL of 1,330-- this represents a power increase of 225.9%!

Aside from that, if KP weren't capable of vastly exceeding Roshi's moon-busting feat, I highly doubt that he[Roshi] would have been so effing terrified of his power. /shrug

I think it is worth noting that he was going to destroy each district "in an instant" and there were 43 or 41 (I don't remember) on earth. He would destroy the whole world in about 41 years. That's just the surface, however.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm fairly sure that the only time we ever saw Roshi use a full power kamehameha was when he destroyed the moon... So I don't think you can call it out of sync for him in that regard.

Full-power? Probably. But he did use one that destroyed a mountain early in the series.

Also, the early days of Dragonball had Bulma naked 3 or 4 times. I was a bit surprised. Did they have different rules for Manga back in the 80s? I do know that somewhere in the 90s, there was a law passed that changed how Manga could be distributed.

Originally posted by Galan007
You could say the same thing about most characters in DBZ, though.

Not really, it stands out as the single most out-there difference between power and result in the whole series by a significant number of orders of magnitude, which says a lot.

I don't think you're quite getting just how out of line it is. Big numbers difference time here.

Tbh these discussions mostly boil down to logical power scaling. After all, only a few characters in DB/DBZ/DBGT have actually destroyed a planet on panel. We *saw* base Frieza do it. We *saw* Kid Buu do it. Does that mean no other characters throughout the whole of Dragonball were capable of destroying a planet? Obviously not. That is where logical power scaling comes into play: we can assume such a feat is still within the ability of a shit-ton of characters, despite them never having preformed a feat on that scale.

Where KP is concerned, it's like I said before: given Roshi's confirmed status as an insta-moon-buster, it's logical to assume KP was capable of unleashing a vastly more devastating blast, as Roshi was literally frightened of his power. If Roshi were capable of launching a more potent blast than KP, he wouldn't have been worried.

That's the thing: By power scaling, you can draw off the Frieza and Kid Buu examples. Frieza was, notably, literally millions of times stronger than the early-saga characters. By power scaling, the Roshi moon thing don't fit at all, it's completely 100% inconsistent with everything in Dragon Ball, and with the Frieza destruction feats.

Additionally I will note, even with Frieza, his planet destruction was not simply raw power, but a specific technique to destroy the 'core' which causes planets to explode. Frieza does not unleash power willy nilly to destroy a planet, he sinks a death ball down to the core, which then seems to cause a chain-reaction of some kind, judging by Namek and Planet Vegeta (which, btw, is the only reason that makes sense- most mangaka, sf writers, and so on, give their planets what I call 'fragile planet syndrome,' wherein they clearly have no idea just how tough planets are. Dragonball, is actually better than normal in this, in that it actually gives a specific mechanism for their fragility).

Hm, we could draw from this and simply say that moons have an even more fragile core that's relatively easy to pop...

Whether you agree or not, certainly you can see where I'm coming from..?

I can see, but it's still silly to lean so heavily on such a clear outlier, which is an outlier to a huge extend.

Unless, that is, one either assume the core/chain reaction thing like above, or alternatively that the moon in DB is much much smaller or otherwise easier to destroy than ours.

I'm fairly sure that the only time we ever saw Roshi use a full power kamehameha was when he destroyed the moon... So I don't think you can call it out of sync for him in that regard.

I can call it out-of-sync with power scaling to what everyone does. Unless you're arguing that his full-power mode puts his power level into the tens of millions.

And he did do a full-power one when he put out the fires of fire mountain too, so yes, we have another example.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really, it stands out as the single most out-there difference between power and result in the whole series by a significant number of orders of magnitude, which says a lot.

I don't think you're quite getting just how out of line it is. Big numbers difference time here.

My point is that several characters have made "I'm going to destroy this planet" comments. Only 2 have actually done so. Thus the believability of said comments ultimately comes down to writer intent: did Akira have that specific character recite that specific dialogue as a means to convey hyperbole, or fact? More times than not, I'd say fact(whether I agree with the claim or not.)

Typically if a character is speaking in hyperbole, we are informed of such later on in the story.

Originally posted by Q99
That's the thing: By power scaling, you can draw off the Frieza and Kid Buu examples. Frieza was, notably, literally millions of times stronger than the early-saga characters.

Originally posted by Q99
By power scaling, the Roshi moon thing don't fit at all, it's completely 100% inconsistent with everything in Dragon Ball, and with the Frieza destruction feats.

Originally posted by Q99
Additionally I will note, even with Frieza, his planet destruction was not simply raw power, but a specific technique to destroy the 'core' which causes planets to explode. Frieza does not unleash power willy nilly to destroy a planet, he sinks a death ball down to the core, which then seems to cause a chain-reaction of some kind, judging by Namek and Planet Vegeta (which, btw, is the only reason that makes sense- most mangaka, sf writers, and so on, give their planets what I call 'fragile planet syndrome,' wherein they clearly have no idea just how tough planets are. Dragonball, is actually better than normal in this, in that it actually gives a specific mechanism for their fragility).

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, we could draw from this and simply say that moons have an even more fragile core that's relatively easy to pop...

Point is: destroying a moon is, pound for pound, much easier than destroying a planet. A moon is proportional to space fluff, relative to a planet.

Originally posted by Q99
I can see, but it's still silly to lean so heavily on such a clear outlier, which is an outlier to a huge extend.

Originally posted by Q99
I can call it out-of-sync with power scaling to what everyone does.

It's not like other characters around Roshi's level ever tried, and failed, to do so. In Dragonball(especially early-saga Dragonball) there was never a need for feats of that magnitude-- the story focused exclusively on plot and fighting skill.