Doomsday vs WW Hulk

I don't see why this is so hard for people to get? If you don't have distinct classifications then every thread with Hulk is going to be WBH vs X. No more Savage Hulk, and that limits the discussions imo. Who needs to read any other Hulk arcs? They know what they will be arguing for or against every time feat wise.

And I think all Pr is saying is that it's still Hulk in the same way a Sundipped Superman is still Superman. It's the same character just under a different classification for the purposes of discussions.

I think that the Hulk supporters now realize how unbalanced this fight is, and they aren't liking it. Hulk loses. If you don't like it, don't cry, just make another thread under your own conditions.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I think there's a power disparity, which I'm free to think even if you guys say/think that I'm wrong, and honestly, I'm fine with that. I do get where you're coming from, as I have from the start; I just don't agree.

It doesn't factor in to the mod ruling though, which I've already stated here, and in previous threads.

I don't think you disagreeing with the stated position of the comics is a tenable position for argumentation.

You can have whatever opinion you like, naturally, but there are objective truths every now and then. One of them being that Marvel stated Green Scar was "The World Breaker". Over and over again, they stated this.

And during WWH, Cho [Pak's voice for most of the arc] states, over and over and over again, that Hulk is always holding back. He even proves it by trying (unsuccessfully) to thoroughly piss him off and make him angry.

I'm not going to get far saying that Superman can't fly, and basing my arguments for why he'll never touch Surfer, on that 'fact'. It could genuinely be my opinion, but DC have another opinion and they're the ones publishing him.

Originally posted by Odekahn
And I think all Pr is saying is that it's still Hulk in the same way a Sundipped Superman is still Superman. It's the same character just under a different classification for the purposes of discussions.

You may not have meant to botch your analogy. But choosing this analogy is pretty much why people are jumping down your throat.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I think that the Hulk supporters now realize how unbalanced this fight is, and they aren't liking it. Hulk loses. If you don't like it, don't cry, just make another thread under your own conditions.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I don't see why this is so hard for people to get? If you don't have distinct classifications then every thread with Hulk is going to be WBH vs X. No more Savage Hulk, and that limits the discussions imo. Who needs to read any other Hulk arcs? They know what they will be arguing for or against every time feat wise.

And I think all Pr is saying is that it's still Hulk in the same way a Sundipped Superman is still Superman. It's the same character just under a different classification for the purposes of discussions.

I think that the Hulk supporters now realize how unbalanced this fight is, and they aren't liking it. Hulk loses. If you don't like it, don't cry, just make another thread under your own conditions.

Savage Hulk is a comic-book defined persona of Hulk, as is Green Scar, Fixit, Gravage, Devil Hulk ... They have been delineated by Marvel, they are (for better or worse and however inconsistently) meant to be separate and distinct characterisations (and often, different base levels, amps and limits).

"WWH" isn't a Marvel character, it is a KMC Vs contrivance to facilitate debate when, post-Pak, such debate would be pretty much impossible for the kinds of threads that are put out there.

"WWH" did not do the feats in WWH, those were done by Green Scar, "WWH" does not have the capacity to go WBH, unlike Green Scar, "WWH" was not holding back to the extent that Green Scar was.

Essentially WWH is like Green Scar, but without his potential or power. Every other way, he is Green Scar.

Originally posted by ODG
Except one is a character who isn't being amped by extraneous sources and is just letting loose his full(er) strength and the other is a character who is being explicitly amped by extraneous sources and letting loose his full(est) strength.

You may not have meant to botch your analogy. But choosing this analogy is pretty much why people are jumping down your throat. This sort of attitude isn't helping.

Before I continue, I'm going to state flat out that I may very well be wrong or misunderstanding. So there's that. I'm not infallible.

Is this the post here?

Originally posted by -Pr-
WWH isn't being neutered. He's just being used as WWH, not WBH. there's a difference.

if I wasn't being clear before, yes, the ruling treats them as differently. so do I. I just thought that I had been clear in why, even though the end result is the same, the methods of reaching that conclusion are different.

I guess that I might seem contradictory or whatever. That's fine. It's after 3am here and honestly, I'm distracted by other stuff. The thing that annoys me is that this isn't the first time this exact point has been brought up. We made a ruling on this months ago, and I certainly wasn't expecting to be involved in another hoo-haw about it. I don't like having to explain a mod ruling that, if you're in doubt about something I said, you can literally look at the ruling and go by that. I'm not above the rules of the forum. Or at the very least, I don't treat myself like I am.

Originally posted by janus77
What power disparity?

I don't think you disagreeing with the stated position of the comics is a tenable position for argumentation.

You can have whatever opinion you like, naturally, but there are objective truths every now and then. One of them being that Marvel stated Green Scar was "The World Breaker". Over and over again, they stated this.

And during WWH, Cho [Pak's voice for most of the arc] states, over and over and over again, that Hulk is always holding back. He even proves it by trying (unsuccessfully) to thoroughly piss him off and make him angry.

I'm not going to get far saying that Superman can't fly, and basing my arguments for why he'll never touch Surfer, on that 'fact'. It could genuinely be my opinion, but DC have another opinion and they're the ones publishing him.

WBH is a term that was coined by this forum in relation to power level, iirc, not Marvel. I am aware of him being called "Green Scar" and "World Breaker" in comics even before he entered in to the stage we mods refer to as "WBH". We just didn't have a better name to use at the time.

Yes, I believe there is/was a power disparity. However, that has nothing to do with the ruling, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm aware that the naming convention might cause confusion, but I'd have thought the mod ruling would have clarified all of that.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I don't see why this is so hard for people to get? If you don't have distinct classifications then every thread with Hulk is going to be WBH vs X. No more Savage Hulk, and that limits the discussions imo. Who needs to read any other Hulk arcs? They know what they will be arguing for or against every time feat wise.

And I think all Pr is saying is that it's still Hulk in the same way a Sundipped Superman is still Superman. It's the same character just under a different classification for the purposes of discussions.

I think that the Hulk supporters now realize how unbalanced this fight is, and they aren't liking it. Hulk loses. If you don't like it, don't cry, just make another thread under your own conditions.

Dude, come on...

Originally posted by ODG
Except one is a character who isn't being amped by extraneous sources and is just letting loose his full(er) strength and the other is a character who is being explicitly amped by extraneous sources and letting loose his full(est) strength.

You may not have meant to botch your analogy. But choosing this analogy is pretty much why people are jumping down your throat. This sort of attitude isn't helping.

Oh, did I say Sundipped? I should have been more specific, I meant OWAW Superman. See the need for classifications? (I have been reading what you've said so this question is rhetorical and not directed at you)

Also, looking back at that last part, it does come off negative. I meant it more playfully than it came across.

Originally posted by Odekahn

And I think all Pr is saying is that it's still Hulk in the same way a Sundipped Superman is still Superman.

Not similar at all. Sundipped Superman is Superman after entering the Sun and absorbing excessive Solar energy well beyond his norm.

If World Breaker Hulk was Green Scar after absorbing tapping into a Gamma Bomb, then the distinction and your analogy would make sense.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Before I continue, I'm going to state flat out that I may very well be wrong or misunderstanding. So there's that. I'm not infallible.

Is this the post here?

if I wasn't being clear before, yes, the ruling treats them as differently. so do I. I just thought that I had been clear in why, even though the end result is the same, the methods of reaching that conclusion are different.

I guess that I might seem contradictory or whatever. That's fine. It's after 3am here and honestly, I'm distracted by other stuff. The thing that annoys me is that this isn't the first time this exact point has been brought up. We made a ruling on this months ago, and I certainly wasn't expecting to be involved in another hoo-haw about it. I don't like having to explain a mod ruling that, if you're in doubt about something I said, you can literally look at the ruling and go by that. I'm not above the rules of the forum. Or at the very least, I don't treat myself like I am.

Either both happens, or neither happens. It ought to be the latter. You ask what people want you to do. I'm suggesting that the best thing to do is to reinforce the simple directive that applies to all of us: no discussing mod rulings.

Originally posted by ODG
Others aren't trying to act like they're above the rules of the forum either. But if they see someone rationalize why they personally think a mod ruling makes sense (irrespective of the actual underlying reason behind it, i.e., fair debate), they'll take it as an invitation to challenge why they personally think a mod ruling doesn't make sense.

Either both happens, or neither happens. It ought to be the latter. You ask what people want you to do. I'm suggesting that the best thing to do is to reinforce the simple directive that applies to all of us: no discussing mod rulings.

If that's all it was, it wouldn't have ruined the last 4-5 pages.

Yeah, that's what I get for trying to be open for questions.

Either way, I'd rather we just move on to the actual topic at this point, if it's all the same to you.

Originally posted by ODG
Actually, WWH has at least three gears: (i) normal WWH who isn't glowing with energy and is obviously holding back; (ii) Worldbreaker who is glowing energy and threatening continental damage with mere footsteps but is still holding back; and (iii) Worldbreaker who is glowing energy and destroying planets with collateral damage and isn't holding back. That last one, was only ever seen at the very end of Heart of the Monster.

If you notice I said "hulk reaches critical mass and has to gears" stating his two gears AFTER reaching critical mass, which is more ore less what you are saying but you are going more in detail.

Originally posted by ODG
The point he is trying to get across to you, is that there is no forum rule that stops Superman in a thread from going all out without a mental block. You are allowed to discuss that possibility -- especially in threads where Kal is pitted against a foe who is extremely powerful. But for WWH, there is a forum rule that prevents WWH from going all out without a mental block and bars such discussion. Indeed, there is a forum rule that prevents him from accessing a level of power where he is still actually holding back: (ii) holding back Worldbreaker.

This is an obvious fact that no longer needs to be belabored by any of us.

Well, I actually did not know that Superman can go full potential in every thread unless the stipulation allows it, because of his personality (hence the term "OWAW"😉, which also I believe Hulk going into WB mode gear two, will depend on innocent civilians around or the CIP rule.

But like I said, I don't mind what ever is the outcome of the discussion.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not similar at all. Sundipped Superman is Superman after entering the Sun and absorb excessive Solar energy well beyond his norm.

If World Breaker Hulk was Green Scar after absorbing tapping into a Gamma Bomb, then the distinction and your analogy would make sense.

I intentionally made that analogy so I could make a separate point. That I should have been more specific about what I was talking about.

The mental block analogy works better for the purpose of the surface point and not the underlying issue I was trying to address.

Guys, get back on topic please.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Oh, did I say Sundipped? I should have been more specific, I meant OWAW Superman. See the need for classifications? (I have been reading what you've said so this question is rhetorical and not directed at you)

Also, looking back at that last part, it does come off negative. I meant it more playfully than it came across.

When you put Doomsday vs WWH in a thread, all of a sudden, you're being forced to discount a whole slew of feats. Not even just his best feats. Even feats where he's STILL holding back. So your "need for classifications" only enforces the ugly disposition you were trying to project onto Hulk supporters:

Originally posted by Odekahn
I think that the Hulk Doomsday supporters now realize how unbalanced this fight is, and they aren't liking it. Hulk Doomsday loses. If you don't like it, don't cry, just make another thread under your own conditions. make up an arbitrary mod ruling to hide behind

Originally posted by -Pr-

Dude, come on...

?

Originally posted by ODG
That's the heart of the issue. Because if you put Doomsday vs Superman in a thread, you very well be damned sure you take into account some of Superman's best feats, e.g., Superman actually matching Doomsday at his highest level when they both went all-out against Imperiex Probes during Our Worlds at War and keeping pace with each other. If you don't, you're just being ignorant.

When you put Doomsday vs WWH in a thread, all of a sudden, you're being forced to discount a whole slew of feats. Not even just his best feats. Even feats where he's STILL holding back. So your "need for classifications" only enforces the ugly disposition you were trying to project onto Hulk supporters: Does this sound playful? Or should you just stop?

No, it doesn't. Thus the reason I said it came out negatively... In case you didn't get that, I agreed with you.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
If you notice I said "hulk reaches critical mass and has to gears" stating his two gears AFTER reaching critical mass, which is more ore less what you are saying but you are going more in detail.

Well, I actually did not know that Superman can go full potential in every thread unless the stipulation allows it, because of his personality (hence the term "OWAW"😉, which also I believe Hulk going into WB mode gear two, will depend on innocent civilians around or the CIP rule.

Do you really expect me to believe that if someone made a Superman vs Imperiex Probes gauntlet thread; you would go into that thread and say, "Well, OP didn't say OWAW Superman, so we have to disregard how Kal was tearing them apart left and right alongside Doomsday. Therefore, he probably can only beat one Probe after a long, tough fight."

Color be dubious.

In one post I'm going to undo what PR has desperately been trying to prevent.

Hulk goes into HOTM/WBH Hulk levels and rages the entire DCU out of existence. WBH jumps into Galactus' mouth and rages Galacutus out of existence...thus inheriting his power cosmic. Hulk uses power cosmic to rage everybody but TOAA out of existence.

It's feasible.

Originally posted by ODG

When you put Doomsday vs WWH in a thread, all of a sudden, you're being forced to discount a whole slew of feats. Not even just his best feats. Even feats where he's STILL holding back. So your "need for classifications" only enforces the ugly disposition you were trying to project onto Hulk supporters:

You are making my point for me. Yes, the whole point of classifying is to discount certain feats. To LIMIT the character to an "arc, powerup, era, etc."

Byrne Superman
Pre52 Superman
Classic Magneto
Etc.

If you want to attack the analogy, fine, but the point stays the same. Same character, different classification for the purpose of the debate.

This thread sucks now.

Originally posted by Raisen
This thread sucks now.

Doomsday wins. Better? 😛