Full-Potential Revan vs Sidious

Originally posted by The_Tempest
True.

And since AOTC says the Republic has stood for a thousand years, anything before that is non-canon as well.

So this is a fight between two non-canon characters.

Also according to Ush's not-at-all biased canon policy, G-canon is superior in any and all contexts, so since Yoda beat Sidious, Yoda solos everything, including Tulak Hord, Revan, Zonakin, and Exar Kun.

Well, Yoda (in G-canon) says he "failed" to beat Sidious, so that doesn't quite work out.

But if he did beat Sidious, then yes, I'd agree. Revisiting TOTJ last week didn't do any favors for Sadow or Kun, BTW.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, Yoda (in G-canon) says he "failed" to beat Sidious, so that doesn't quite work out.

But if he did beat Sidious, then yes, I'd agree. Revisiting TOTJ last week didn't do any favors for Sadow or Kun, BTW.

1. Your inability to appreciate the raw awesome that is TOTJ is your shortcoming, not ours.

2. Yoda handed Sids his ass in saber usage AND Force usage. Because of the situation, he failed to kill Sidious but this does not preclude the point that he definitely could. Don't make me bring up my scan-for-scan argument again. Chiefly because I can't find it easily.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Your inability to appreciate the raw awesome that is TOTJ is your shortcoming, not ours.

I forgot how much of a witty snarker Kun was. But I mostly meant in terms of Force power; there's actually very little there that could be argued to be beyond the films.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Yoda handed Sids his ass in saber usage AND Force usage. Because of the situation, he failed to [b]kill Sidious but this does not preclude the point that he definitely could. Don't make me bring up my scan-for-scan argument again. Chiefly because I can't find it easily. [/B]

"handed Sids his ass" lol

1. Yeah Kun is immensely powerful, just not above the top dogs of the PT.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I forgot how much of a witty snarker Kun was. But I mostly meant in terms of Force power; there's actually very little there that could be argued to be beyond the films.

Did you read The Sith Wars? TOTJ immediately precedes this series, you know. Also, there was a lot of grand-scale effecting Force usage in both, from Battle Meditation to mass illusions, draining of groups and hyponosis, etc. It's hardly at or below film-era.

"handed Sids his ass" lol

It could take me the better part of an hour or more to find those scans. But when I do, you will rue this day. Or perhaps tomorrow.

EDIT: My Google Fu is the real deal. BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE.

Scans? As in, comic scans? You do know that in the comic version Sidious beats Yoda within a page, right? And if you mean you're going to scan a novel page, the novel also depicts Sidious as Yoda's clear superior.

The only source where Yoda has the advantage is the script, and in the movie it's practically an even battle, give or take.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Scans? As in, comic scans? You do know that in the comic version Sidious beats Yoda within a page, right? And if you mean you're going to scan a novel page, the novel also depicts Sidious as Yoda's clear superior.

The only source where Yoda has the advantage is the script, and in the movie it's practically an even battle, give or take.

Screen grabs is more appropriate, I agree. Not comic scans. Click the above link. I posted screen grabs of the RotS fight and analyzed it. It goes over many many pages with a lot of BS, but the scans themselves are quite relevant.

If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Newguy is objecting to your phrasing: Yoda handing Sidious his ass implies the battle is completely one sided and effortless.

Which your scans do not even suggest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Newguy is objecting to your phrasing: Yoda handing Sidious his ass implies the battle is completely one sided and effortless.

Which your scans do not even suggest.

Actually, if you keep looking, I posted more screen grabs as did Pyron knight. It got to the point where after the latter posted his, you posted this:

Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.

^ Clearly, the argument was sufficient at the time and you've decided to forget it ever happened.

The first set of scans show that Sids was outmaneuvered in the saber battle and unable to make head-way. When the pod is rising into the Senate chamber, Yoda is pretty much keeping him boxed in the middle. Then, when he is disarmed, Sidious cannot win a Force fight with Yoda; both the TK contest and the lightning struggle go to Yoda. Yoda only 'loses' because he lands at the bottom of the Senate chamber, sans weapon, and cannot find the upper ground again.

On neutral ground without the disadvantage of pods, etc., Yoda would undo Sidious pretty easily. Watch it again.

SM
Actually, if you keep looking, I posted more screen grabs as did Pyron knight. It got to the point where after the latter posted his, you posted this:

^ Clearly, the argument was sufficient at the time and you've decided to forget it ever happened.

If you read my words carefully, nowhere do I concede the argument on its merits. In fact, I go out of my way to state that I do not see what you appear to be seeing. Instead, what I do is succumb to a fallacious appeal to majority.

All you've proven is that I, like you, have said some dumb things. Unlike you, I only do so occasionally. excellent

SM
The first set of scans show that Sids was outmaneuvered in the saber battle and unable to make head-way. When the pod is rising into the Senate chamber, Yoda is pretty much keeping him boxed in the middle. Then, when he is disarmed, Sidious cannot win a Force fight with Yoda; both the TK contest and the lightning struggle go to Yoda. Yoda only 'loses' because he lands at the bottom of the Senate chamber, sans weapon, and cannot find the upper ground again.

On neutral ground without the disadvantage of pods, etc., Yoda would undo Sidious pretty easily. Watch it again.

I remember your argument quite well and I've seen the fight countless times. But the fact remains that Yoda is knocked unconscious, disarmed, and shown to be in extreme pain at one point or another during the duel.

This is antithetical to handing someone his or her ass. That this eludes you is only incontrovertible proof of your Sidious-hate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Did you read The Sith Wars? TOTJ immediately precedes this series, you know.

Included in the torrent are all the TOTJ comics from The Golden Age of the Sith to Redemption, which includes The Sith War.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, there was a lot of grand-scale effecting Force usage in both, from Battle Meditation to mass illusions, draining of groups and hyponosis, etc. It's hardly at or below film-era.

Battle meditation has its out-of-universe origins with the effect Palpatine's death had on the Imperial fleet at Endor. Subsequent material reveals Palpatine's manipulations were far more vast than what is used by Arca, Odan-Urr, and Nomi.

I'll grant you mass illusions.

The draining of groups was part of a ritual performed in a temple engineered to focus immense Force energies.

As Blax used to sarcastically remark, Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh's duel consisted of hurling bricks. Yoda and Sidious through Senate pods. There's very little to suggest their Force abilities outstripped those of the films, especially without their trinkets.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It could take me the better part of an hour or more to find those scans. But when I do, you will rue this day. Or perhaps tomorrow.

EDIT: My Google Fu is the real deal. BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE.

We're majorly off-topic, although I have no room to talk

Originally posted by The_Tempest

If you read my words carefully, nowhere do I concede the argument on its merits. In fact, I go out of my way to state that I do not see what you appear to be seeing. Instead, what I do is succumb to a fallacious appeal to majority.

Actually, it looks to me like a shocking instance of postformal thinking, where you actually reflect on your thoughts and note that you are having issues seeing any other side but your own yet you acknowledge other sides may have merits and thus concede the argument. It's the most mature thing you did that year, probably, besides not require an adult's permission to enter an R-rated movie.

But you can spin it so hard Fox News will sue you for copyright infringement, sure. You do that. Pyron and I gave you scans and Youtube videos and argued them in a detailed and objective fashion. Least you could do is respect that with a rebuttal. A rebuttal, I might add, that you could not muster at the time.

All you've proven is that I, like you, have said some dumb things. Unlike you, I only do so occasionally. excellent

I remember your argument quite well and I've seen the fight countless times. But the fact remains that Yoda is knocked unconscious, disarmed, and shown to be in extreme pain at one point or another during the duel.

Kind of like how Anakin was after his duel with Obi-Wan. Yeah, Anakin < Obi-Wan. It all makes sense now.

This is antithetical to handing someone his or her ass. That this eludes you is only incontrovertible proof of your Sidious-hate.

No, it's a thorough examination of valid evidence, which you did not refute except by refusing to accept any facts presented. As Nai said very recently, ignoring facts does not make them go away.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Included in the torrent are all the TOTJ comics from The Golden Age of the Sith to Redemption, which includes The Sith War.

Battle meditation has its out-of-universe origins with the effect Palpatine's death had on the Imperial fleet at Endor. Subsequent material reveals Palpatine's manipulations were far more vast than what is used by Arca, Odan-Urr, and Nomi.

I'll grant you mass illusions.

The draining of groups was part of a ritual performed in a temple engineered to focus immense Force energies.

As Blax used to sarcastically remark, Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh's duel consisted of hurling bricks. Yoda and Sidious through Senate pods. There's very little to suggest their Force abilities outstripped those of the films, especially without their trinkets.[/b]

Just that said amulets and spaceships display Force-powered augmentation that is not replicated outside of their era, nor equaled within it. But throwing bricks is all they did, oh and when Kressh got pissed he basically crumpled a statue with a thought:

And those bricks pulled out of the wall and slung at Kressh's head? They were pretty big and didn't even knock him out. Comparatively, Obi-Wan takes a nap if he grazes a bulkhead.

^ That's a temple shot, btw.

Compared to:

Wait, I'm sorry. That was a hand rail.

Also, only one brick hit him; he dodged the others:

Kressh and Sadow are ridiculously strong physically and in the Force:

Originally posted by Janus Marius

Sith swords have cortosis weaving and are reinforced via Sith magic.

Ludo Kressh broke one with his bare hands.

^ This sums up how I feel about your counter-argument. Or whatever that was you just offered.

The brick thing is a retarded argument. Its obviously the same trick Vader does in his ESB fight with Luke. That hardly means pelting someone with small objects is the best Vader can do. He and Sadow are just doing it to gain the upper hand in a conflict.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The brick thing is a retarded argument. Its obviously the same trick Vader does in his ESB fight with Luke. That hardly means pelting someone with small objects is the best Vader can do. He and Sadow are just doing it to gain the upper hand in a conflict.

And the pods argument is hardly representative of Yoda either, to be fair. Yoda caused an orbital missile to slide in Dark Rendezvous and in the same book even earlier, created a TK net against the vacuum of space. In fact, remembering that, Yoda is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, it looks to me like a shocking instance of postformal thinking, where you actually reflect on your thoughts and note that you are having issues seeing any other side but your own yet you acknowledge other sides may have merits and thus concede the argument.

I know, I know. I'm amazingly considerate and impartial.

I now challenge you to rummage through your own post history and find something comparable.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But you can spin it so hard Fox News will sue you for copyright infringement, sure. You do that. Pyron and I gave you scans and Youtube videos and argued them in a detailed and objective fashion. Least you could do is respect that with a rebuttal. A rebuttal, I might add, that you could not muster at the time.

Detailed, yes, but objective?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kind of like how Anakin was after his duel with Obi-Wan. Yeah, Anakin < Obi-Wan. It all makes sense now.

^ Posting this in lieu of an actual response would have been both appropriate and easier.

Kindly explain to me how, if in the process of fighting B, A is knocked unconscious, disarmed, and in extreme pain at one point or another, A somehow "handed his ass."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]No, it's a thorough examination of valid evidence, which you did not refute except by refusing to accept any facts presented. As Nai said very recently, ignoring facts does not make them go away.

Your "thorough examination of valid evidence" in no way addresses Yoda being [color=red]knocked unconscious, disarmed, and in extreme pain[/red] when fighting Sidious.

Stevie Wonder has a better aptitude for visual examination, son.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Just that said amulets and spaceships display Force-powered augmentation that is not replicated outside of their era, nor equaled within it.

So what? How does their crippling need for gizmos, trinkets, and other Force-enhancing paraphernalia indicate superiority over badasses who manage to be thus without relying on them?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But throwing bricks is all they did, oh and when Kressh got pissed he basically crumpled a statue with a thought:

So what? He crushes a [probably] ancient statue.

?v=QwV_BdsxXrI#t=204

Freshly-minted Vader crushes durasteel. The same telekinetic rage that "cannot touch" Sidious per the ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And those bricks pulled out of the wall and slung at Kressh's head? They were pretty big and didn't even knock him out. Comparatively, Obi-Wan takes a nap if he grazes a bulkhead.

^ That's a temple shot, btw.

Compared to:

Wait, I'm sorry. That was a hand rail.

So what? What proof have you that this owes to Force strength and/or mastery and not superior physiology?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, only one brick hit him; he dodged the others:

Oh, he threw two bricks?

No, you're absolutely right. Their divinity is so hilariously obvious; any plebe can handle one brick. But two?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kressh and Sadow are ridiculously strong physically and in the Force:

Their physical strength isn't in question. The "ridiculous" strength in the Force, however, is unattested.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This sums up how I feel about your counter-argument. Or whatever that was you just offered.

I didn't even notice the formatting errors.

That'll teach me to preview the sumbitch next time.

I think enperor vitate was more powerful in combat orientated fears of the force than sidious, furthermore i think vitate had more raw power than sidious.

I believe that reborn revan who had mastery, knowledge and the rare ability to use the light side and the dark side of the force in simultaneous unison makes him more powerful than sidious.

I believe revan had more knowledge of the force than sidious, culmination of both light and dark, as well as possessing more field experience in both utilizing a broad range of force powers light and dark as well as fighting against users who employed light and users who employed dark.

no on the Revan thing, just no. Revan didn't have more knowledge of the force than Sidious. Sidious also studied the light extensively, but he never utilized it. Sidious would defeat Revan.