Re: Re: Re: Wonder Woman vs. High Heralds
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I mean solidly in this class--at least in the middle, and not the least formidable member.
She is solidly in that class. IMO Sacrifice is a pretty good representation of her abilities.. slightly less strong and less durable than the benchmark for top tiers, but skill, gear, will and other abilities makes up for it and more.
I don't think Superman is in fact the 'benchmark' for top tiers. His portrayals are too variable, and his power too often explicitly dynamic, to be a good benchmark. This is similar to the Hulk in some ways, though Superman's dynamism is less explicit or 'dynamic'.
I also like to think of Diana as high herald, and believe that she is one. I'm happy to see so much support for her here, but I also believe too many of the supporters are ignoring why so many people have trouble seeing her as High Herald.
For one, Sacrifice is overblown. The writer in question admitted his opinion was a minority one. On balance, Diana has clearly been made second to Superman not only in power, but in overall formidability. Meanwhile, other characters at DC are often treated as equals to Superman: Marvel, Orion, etc. Diana almost never is. Furthermore, in many stories where they are treated as equals and foils to Superman, Diana is put a step behind them (Distant Fires, Kingdom Come). And a last point is that if one really feels Superman is no more than another High Herald, on par with Thor and Surfer and Gladiator, but not more powerful, then it is difficult to rank Diana as a full equal to those characters when she has almost always been said to be a step below Superman. These other High Heralds are invariably treated as peers, with writers making it clear that whether one is more powerful than another is in doubt. If Superman is just another high herald like the others on this list, then Diana is the only one on this list who is constantly said to be definitely a step behind another member of this club.
Again, I think Diana does belong in this club. But I cannot pretend there aren't some solid reasons why many people feel she is a half-step (at least) behind everyone else here.
For one, Sacrifice is overblown. The writer in question admitted his opinion was a minority one. On balance, Diana has clearly been made second to Superman not only in power, but in overall formidability.
Except we have not just one, but a buncha cases of her drawing Superman or similar. For Tomorrow, for example, has Superman unable to get past her until he uses a distraction (and they can hit each other through a mountain with no real damage- it shows if they *aren't* going all out, Superman's normal blows don't do much to her). Sacrifice is very much in line with other portrayals. And she's been shown as an equal to Captain Marvel as mentioned (a character she's much more versatile than), and she has a lot of uber foes, some of which have beaten Superman or stronger...
You seem to be under a mistaken impression on something: Second to Superman is a good thing. It means other major DC heralds are third.
And a last point is that if one really feels Superman is no more than another High Herald, on par with Thor and Surfer and Gladiator, but not more powerful, then it is difficult to rank Diana as a full equal to those characters when she has almost always been said to be a step below Superman.
Except Superman, Thor, and Surfer aren't normally considered in the middle of the High Heralds, they are considered the very best, the top edge.
And that is still mostly talking direct power, and doesn't really address her major edge against magic users, psychics, and the like. She has more general utility than many high heralds.
But I cannot pretend there aren't some solid reasons why many people feel she is a half-step (at least) behind everyone else here.
Half a step puts her in the middle of the high heralds, not the bottom (and 'at least' falls into the problem of being pretty directly contradicted by her status as second-to-Superman. It's more 'half a step, if that much'😉. And people keep rating her equal or above to a good number of the characters in the original list, so there's an obvious flaw in that statement.
True, there are solid reasons - but equally, there are good reasons why she is portrayed as being below the big boys.
Her skillset and weaponry. If she was given as much free reign as, say Ares had in Marvel, she'd be oneshotting (or one slicing) enemies left right and centre with those weapons. In Sacrifice, if it had been reversed (so WW was seeing Superman as her deadliest enemy who had just killed her love) she'd have busted her sword out and tried to take his head off. She's a warrior, with warrior skills, and lethal weapons. Not quite the hero archetype.
I generally don't like to use low end one off feats like that though, since WW and Superman have instances of being tagged by Batman and other low end speed characters.
I think power wise and raw movement speed, Gladiator definitely has an edge but in terms of attack speed and skill, Diana evens out. I wouldn't give her more than 5/10 though.
Diana's big problem when it comes to respect has always been related to Superman. As I mentioned, none of these other characters, especially the Marvel ones, get explicitly placed below another one of the characters on this list the way that Wonder Woman gets put second to Superman.
If one feels Diana is getting 5/10s versus most of these, then Superman should be getting 6/10s or more. And frankly, I think that Superman's edge over Diana has historically been more than a 1/10. Though in the new 52, it is hard to say.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
She would do well against Superman who is most likely above Glads.
There is still a wide gap between SM and WW and you have to compare Gladiator to a non-holding back Superman, whether Superman edges him or not. I agree he does, but not in power per say, just overall competence.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Diana's big problem when it comes to respect has always been related to Superman. As I mentioned, none of these other characters, especially the Marvel ones, get explicitly placed below another one of the characters on this list the way that Wonder Woman gets put second to Superman.
If one feels Diana is getting 5/10s versus most of these, then Superman should be getting 6/10s or more. And frankly, I think that Superman's edge over Diana has historically been more than a 1/10. Though in the new 52, it is hard to say.
I disagree her respect level has been based on her performances against Superman. In fact, I think her showings against Superman has greatly enhanced her reputation. Her respect level is impacted negatively the most first because of her inconsistent portrayals and second because she lacks overall power and EP.
Re: Wonder Woman vs. High Heralds
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Which of these is Diana at least 5/10 against? Is she truly in this class of heroes?Wonder Woman vs,
-Gladiator
- Orion
-Thor
-Silver Surfer
-Captain Marvel/Shazam
-Black Adam
-Martian Manhunter
-Beta Ray Bill
-Hyperion (current)
-Blue Marvel
I think she's the clear underdog to pretty much everyone here power wise except maybe John who can really job at times. That being said, with her gear and lasso, she might be able to do very well against the more limited characters. Unfortunately, it's been shown that characters with Superman like speed can easily avoid her lasso if they know what to expect. And it's hardly infallible as we've seen over the years. Amusingly, John with his intangibility/shape shifting/telepathy on top of his already other formidable stats, should pretty much be Wonder Woman's worst nightmare in a fight but whatever.
Guys like Orion, Blue Marvel, Thor, Silver Surfer and so on beat her imho. Hyperion isn't as fleshed out but he's a beast, if Diana can score a win against him, I think it's going to be like fighting Superman: In a straight up fight, she'd be torn to pieces.