Wonder Woman vs. High Heralds

Originally posted by Q99
Mid heralds don't have fight records or hax win abilities like she does. The odds you give is at odds with her actual performances against High Heralds like Superman and Captain Marvel, and other characters stated in-universe POVs (Batman rates her above J'onn, Superman rates her number 2, etc.).

And there's still the matter that against someone like Max Lord, Manchester Black, Circe, or Loki, she's much better off than Superman or most high heralds. Against those types of foes, and that's not an uncommon type of foe, she's better off. Her overall level is High Herald.

Just because I classify her as a mid herald, does not mean she has no chance of beating high heralds and or foes you've mentioned.

In the end when she gets compared to a popular high herald (Superman) in her respective universe, it's almost always portrayed that she is a notch below.

Tghat logic makes sense, unless Superman is a notch above. Though lately in the New 52, he hasn't seemed to be.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17

In the end when she gets compared to a popular high herald (Superman) in her respective universe, it's almost always portrayed that she is a notch below.

But specifically one slot bellow, I.e. "If I die, I trust you to beat up all my villains for me," lower (from Superman). And, "If she's controlled by villains, only Superman could stop her," (from Batman, said with Martian Manhunter in the room).

One notch below the best DC high herald does not equal mid herald. It equals not as top a High Herald.

Especially when, "Oh no, Superman's on an unstoppable rampage! There's only one person to stop him: Wonder Woman," happened, and was successfully completed.

And aside from her win against Superman in Sacrifice, and her draws against him in places like For Tomorrow, she also beat Zoom, a high herald (who's stronger than Wally West, in turn a high herald!), Circe, who's trans, Genocide, who's trans, Queen of Fables, who's trans-to-skyfather... you get the idea.

Against Doomsday War Doomsday, who could one-shot Martian Manhunter, she could stand up to him fight and take repeated hits.

Then there's other matters, like her being portrayed as equal to Captain Marvel when they meet, even when she doesn't use her lasso hax, shown to be a sure win, demonstrating her versatility edge.

Mid heralds who go against her like Power Girl, Supergirl, Achilles, Cheetah (who's beaten Superman by ambush!) and so on have a strong tendency to be solidly beaten, so it's not like she remotely fits as a peer of mid heralds either. She's closer to Superman than she is to the mid heralds.

You're focusing entirely on the one-notch thing and ignoring what she actually does and what characters actually say. Her feats easily support her as a high herald, and the idea that one-notch means mid herald seems to be just something you've latched onto for some reason.

Originally posted by Q99
But specifically one slot bellow, I.e. "If I die, I trust you to beat up all my villains for me," lower (from Superman). And, "If she's controlled by villains, only Superman could stop her," (from Batman, said with Martian Manhunter in the room).

One notch below the best DC high herald does not equal mid herald. It equals not as top a High Herald.

Especially when, "Oh no, Superman's on an unstoppable rampage! There's only one person to stop him: Wonder Woman," happened, and was successfully completed.

And aside from her win against Superman in Sacrifice, and her draws against him in places like For Tomorrow, she also beat Zoom, a high herald (who's stronger than Wally West, in turn a high herald!), Circe, who's trans, Genocide, who's trans, Queen of Fables, who's trans-to-skyfather... you get the idea.

Against Doomsday War Doomsday, who could one-shot Martian Manhunter, she could stand up to him fight and take repeated hits.

Then there's other matters, like her being portrayed as equal to Captain Marvel when they meet, even when she doesn't use her lasso hax, shown to be a sure win, demonstrating her versatility edge.

Mid heralds who go against her like Power Girl, Supergirl, Achilles, Cheetah (who's beaten Superman by ambush!) and so on have a strong tendency to be solidly beaten, so it's not like she remotely fits as a peer of mid heralds either. She's closer to Superman than she is to the mid heralds.

You're focusing entirely on the one-notch thing and ignoring what she actually does and what characters actually say. Her feats easily support her as a high herald, and the idea that one-notch means mid herald seems to be just something you've latched onto for some reason.

-Gladiator - split

- Orion - she takes 4/10

-Thor - she takes 4/10

-Silver Surfer - she takes 4/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam - split

-Black Adam - she takes 4/10

-Martian Manhunter - non jobing Jonn should win 6/10

-Beta Ray Bill - she takes 4/10

-Hyperion (current) - she takes 4/10

-Blue Marvel - I need to see more from Adam

DC is complicated. To some extent, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, and Orion (and also Doctor Fate) are not always considered when a character in the DCU talks about the universe of heroes as a whole.
So many feel that when Diana is said to be #2 behind Superman, they aren't really including these guys--who happen to be DC's only other real high heralds on Earth. In a similar vein, many people feel that when Superman is called the most powerful being on Earth, they aren't considering DC's other High Heralds.

Look at them one at a time:

Orion: A god, not a hero, and not on Earth anywhere near as much as Thor

Shazam: Fawcett characters have always had one foot in and one foot out of the mainstream DCU. They don't quite fit. Plus, for all his power and toughness, Billy is a boy and might not be eligible to be Earth's back-up champion.

Black Adam: Similar to Shazam, he's a Fawcett guy. And a villain sometimes. So two reasons to doubt he is being considered in all the #1 and #2 stuff.

Doctor Fate: It is typical for mages to not be considered to be playing in the same sandbox as mundane heroes. Plus, Fate's continuity is messed up. There are frequently long periods where Fate is just a guy in training, and not that effective: early Hector, Strausses, Kent Jr., etc.

Martian Manhunter: Pre-reboot, he was considered. But he was also a bit of a jobber. Post-reboot, he has been this secret, behind the scenes guy. So it could well be that all the New 52 comments about Superman or Diana's ranking do not factor MM in.

Majestic: Just recently included in the DCU, and still barely established. So clearly not included.

I think Diana is High Herald. But playing devil's advocate, there seems to be some evidence that whenever Superman and Diana are said to be the most powerful heroes in the world, the narrative is referring to a 'World' that excludes the other true High Heralds at in the DCU. They are being compared to the Mid and low heralds.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
There are not many that belong in the high herald tier imo. Hence the term high herald..

In the top 1/3rd of herald, yes?

And the fact that Superman considers her number 2 doesn't tell you anything? That she has a rogue's gallery full of trans beings, stalemates high-heralds with regularity?

I suppose you must think Captain Marvel's a mid herald too.

Achilles to you is a mid herald? Dunno bout that.

He beat down Eradicator, who in turn is a mid herald, so yes, pretty obviously.

PG looks like one. Btw to me she's closer to her than Supes.

Combat results disagree with you. WW tooled Power Girl. For Tomorrow, Superman was unable to even get past Wonder Woman (and that's by a Superman writer in a Superman book). Sacrifice... well, you know how that turned out.

Cheetah a mid herald..? Hmm. That maybe be an iffy too.

Cheetah, who beat Superman by ambush, and who, in Superman's own thoughts at the time, 'hits like Captain Marvel'? Caught and ripped up Wally West? Ripped up Firestorm? That Cheetah?

Pillow Biter

So many feel that when Diana is said to be #2 behind Superman, they aren't really including these guys--who happen to be DC's only other real high heralds on Earth.

Yea, I think the fact that WW has a better record against Superman than CM, and has multiple physical stalemates with CM, and her lasso has depowered him twice, and the gods give them equal roles as divine champions, and she has more powerful villains than CM all says something about how seriously I take that.

I can see excluding Orion, he really does have other matters, but CM not being included? Pff. Wouldn't matter whether he's in or out, she is at least his equal in direct combat and has more versatility against other foes.

Martian Manhunter: Pre-reboot, he was considered. But he was also a bit of a jobber. Post-reboot, he has been this secret, behind the scenes guy. So it could well be that all the New 52 comments about Superman or Diana's ranking do not factor MM in.

I will mention I'm talking pre-reboot too. Nu52, I don't know how it shakes up.

There's also the (unspoken) sexist view, that she's below these guys because she's female.

I am guilty of this as well. With comics being such a visual medium, when you have 6"4 muscle guys like Clark and Kallark, let alone the Hulk, even the more muscular Alex Ross depictions of Wonder Woman sometimes skews my judgement.

Let alone the cartoons, where all the men are triangles...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
There's also the (unspoken) sexist view, that she's below these guys because she's female.

I am guilty of this as well. With comics being such a visual medium, when you have 6"4 muscle guys like Clark and Kallark, let alone the Hulk, even the more muscular Alex Ross depictions of Wonder Woman sometimes skews my judgement.

Let alone the cartoons, where all the men are triangles...

Yes, I think that does play a role.

Even though we should know intellectually, when it comes to powers, it's really just amount of power that matter. Weapons certainly don't hurt either, 'specially when she's shown to have multiple quick game-enders even against herald level foes.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, I think that does play a role.

Even though we should know intellectually, when it comes to powers, it's really just amount of power that matter. Weapons certainly don't hurt either, 'specially when she's shown to have multiple quick game-enders even against herald level foes.

👆

But she can't be shown decapitating enemies left right and centre a la Wolverine. She's noble, and an ambassador for peace.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆

But she can't be shown decapitating enemies left right and centre a la Wolverine. She's noble, and an ambassador for peace.

Interestingly enough, gods are exempt from this 🙂

Her god bodycount is at *least* 3, two of which involves weapons to the head (one tiara decapitation, one vertical axe cleave).

She can be an ambassador for peace.....but even the weakest minds know that when it comes to a fight, it either you or them, half of the guys shes fighting wouldnt hesitate to break her neck given half the chance...an amazonian warrior princess with thousands of years battle experience probably knows shes gonna have to chop some bitches up when it comes to it.

Originally posted by Q99
Interestingly enough, gods are exempt from this 🙂

Her god bodycount is at *least* 3, two of which involves weapons to the head (one tiara decapitation, one vertical axe cleave).

I'm adding you to my Justice League of Avengers list of forum members - the go to guys for certain characters. You know way too much of a certain character to be healthy 😛

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With comics being such a visual medium, when you have 6"4 muscle guys like Clark and Kallark, let alone the Hulk, even the more muscular Alex Ross depictions of Wonder Woman sometimes skews my judgement.

Trust your judgement. It's not sexism at work, it's biology.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Trust your judgement. It's not sexism at work, it's biology.

She's a mystical clay statue given life.

He's a Strontian.

How does my knowledge of human biology help???

I have enough trouble with human females as it is.

In the DCNu she a demigod

Zeus's batted to be exact

Actually, she's now the full fledged God of War.

*Bastard

PS for some reason I don't have Bastard in my fone dictionary

@DS cool didn't know that

Originally posted by Warlord
-Gladiator - split

- Orion - she takes 4/10

-Thor - she takes 4/10

-Silver Surfer - she takes 4/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam - split

-Black Adam - she takes 4/10

-Martian Manhunter - non jobing Jonn should win 6/10

-Beta Ray Bill - she takes 4/10

-Hyperion (current) - she takes 4/10

-Blue Marvel - I need to see more from Adam

I pretty much agree with this. I'd be inclined to give her a slight edge against CM/Shazam because of the lasso and I think she'd do even worse against Surfer.

I throw my hands up when it comes to J'onn. Who knows.