Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That's Malak with Star Forge plot-induced boss mode, not base Malak. We don't know if Malak buffed is sustainable like how the SI steals ghosts or if it is a temporary burst and expended upon use. Therefore, arguing buffed Malak is like arguing Hestizo Trace in the zone or bota-high Barriss Offee.
This is from the (former) official databank:
The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.
Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia even goes as far as to use the word "invincible" to describe Malak's position of power at this point.
It is obvious that Malak siphoned energies from multiple Jedi captives to fuel his power on Star Forge and was remarkably strong at this point.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Carth is a non-factor in a fight against a Sith Lord, and Bastila's showings aside from her Battle Meditation are woefully low. She was captured by swoop gangs because her lightsaber got stuck, ffs.
Shan's line-up have been recently acknowledged as among the most powerful and gifted ones in the galactic history much like Skywalker's line-up:
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: EnyclopediaMaster Satele is heir to a line of powerful Jedi. She claims to be a descendent of the once-fallen hero Revan, and Bastilla Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless. Though their is immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: EnyclopediaA Jedi strike team assembled to capture Revan----and redeem him, if possible. Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastilla Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagship, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith.
From Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia[/B]A skilled Jedi from Talravin who specialized in Jedi battle meditation during the years of the Jedi Civil War. Bastilla Shan was brash and impulsive, turning every fiber of her being toward defeating the Sith menace and proving herself to the leading Jedi.
Bastilla's capture at the hands of thugs is a circumstantial event. The escape pods of Endar Spire crash-landed on different locations in Taris (if I am not mistaken) and Bastilla was not in good shape when she found herself surrounded by thugs.
I am not sure why people think lowly of Bastilla because of one circumstantial event but they fail to learn anything from the story of Count Dooku:
http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep111/#!/about
Here is an advice: shit happens
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
We also have no idea how powerful Revan was at the time of the Leviathan, but it is clear he does not have his old memories at this point. Drew K. explicitly said that the fight against Malak when buffed was "epic", meaning that Revan got better in the interim. Otherwise, how could he be overcome by Malak's Force use on the Leviathan and then beat the same guy with buffs later?
Originally posted by Stealth MooseSpoiler:
Land mines.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, the best showing in the mythos is Heztiso Trace, who has a burst of speed that is virtually unparalleled. A whipid bounty hunter who previously moved so fast he was a blur to a Force user looked like a statue before her in action. But it was a one-time "Force moment" that is unreplicated, and I wouldn't argue it as consistent.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nyriss' lightning is uber impressive, and her thrashing of Malak and Meetra is nothing to sneeze at. But I don't see Revan easily defending against a speed-blitz by Plagueis, who is every bit as dangerous and perhaps moreso.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I understand the limitation of documentation issue. It's the reason why people assume Kun can't defeat anyone from the movies in some cases. But what we have here is a clear argument for raw power and speed, and that argument is in Plaguies' favor. Revan has not demonstrated this same level, although his Force use may be comparable.
And raw power factor doesn't goes in favor of Plagueis at all: nearly atomizing defenseless individuals is not comparable to utterly destroying a powerful Sith Lord in a short span of time. Sorry.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So is Plaguies, Ulic, Kun, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda. They aren't all identical in prowess, and rarely stack up neatly against each other or others.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: RevanSCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: GameAs the Sith Emperor's personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath."
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: EncylopediaENTIRE GENERATIONS of the Sith Dark Council have passed under the watchful eyes of the Emperor's personal executioner, the grim Lord Scourge. As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more then three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Drew's treatment of Meetra was heinous, but as she's presented canonically I have no choice but to conclude that she is farther from Revan's level of power than TSL suggests, and Scourge was still a mere apprentice at the time of the novel, so his respective power level is relatively weak too.
From an interview of Mr. Chris."Part of the fun with designing them," he adds, "was if you have these incredibly powerful Force users and they have their whole hidden domain out in the distant reaches of the galaxy, what would that Sith empire really look like at the hands of these things?
"If they could shape entire planets or galaxies or nebulas, and they had all these slave races at their disposal, how cool would that be, to go into the heart of darkness and you're the lone Jedi and/or new version of the Sith confronting these guys? What would that be like? I thought that would be pretty epic."
And Scourge was not an apprentice during the events represented by the aforementioned novel (a battle-hardened Sith Lord instead):
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: RevanA decade earlier, when Scourge had first arrived on Dromund Kaas as a young apprentice, he had vowed to one day set foot inside the citadel's exclusive halls. Yet in all his years of training at the Sith Academy on Kaas City's borders, he had never been granted the privilege. He had been one of the top students, marked by his superiors for his strength in the Force and his fanatic devotion to the ways of the Sith. But acolytes were not permitted inside the citadel; its secrets were reserved for those in direct service to the Emperor and the Dark Council.
The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him during the brutal training sessions.
Now, after almost two years away, he was back on Dromund Kaas. Standing on the landing pad, he could once again feel the dark side deep inside his bones, the sizzling heat more than compensating for the minor discomfort of the wind and rain. But he was no longer a mere apprentice. Scourge had returned to the seat of Imperial power as a full-fledged Sith Lord.
He had known this day would come eventually. After graduating from the Sith Academy he had hoped for a posting on Dromund Kaas. Instead he had been sent to the fringes of the Empire to help quell a series of minor rebellions on recently conquered worlds. Scourge suspected the posting had been a punishment of some type. One of his instructors, jealous of the star pupil's potential, had probably recommended that he be stationed as far from the seat of Imperial power as possible to slow his ascent to the upper ranks of Sith society.
Unfortunately, Scourge had no proof to back his theory. Yet even exiled to the uncivilized sectors on the farthest borders of the Empire, he had still managed to forge his reputation. His martial skills and ruthless pursuit of the rebel leaders caught the notice of several prominent military leaders. Now, two years after leaving the Academy, he had returned to Dromund Kaas as a newly anointed Lord of the Sith. More important, he was here at the personal request of Darth Nyriss, one of the most senior members of the Emperor’s Dark Council.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sidious made Maul and Savage his bitches. But he struggled against Yoda. The former situation does not invalidate his latter difficulty.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Not every opponent "disarms". Also, if you want to be pretentious about it, Malak "disarms" Revan when he Force whirlwinds him and Force freezes him onboard Leviathan. This point is moot.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which could potentially consist of five snipers of unknown quantity.
This mission was carried out under direct supervision of Malgus and he wouldn't send some troops after Revan, Malgus himself recognized Revan's incredible power.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Given his Force connection, we can assume Revan is very fast. But we can't prove where he is faster than Plaguies. That's the whole debate.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This might mean something if all Sith Lords were equal. They are not. Also, Obi-Wan knocked Maul on his ass, cut his saber in half, and then bisected him. Obi-Wan is a fly on Yoda's ass in direct combat. This doesn't hold any water.
Obi-Wan was not a fly in comparison to Yoda by the end of The Clone Wars. His performance against Anakin should tell you something. Though I do believe that Yoda was/is on a different level in comparison to him or both.
Anyways, I think I need to rephrase my original statement. Revan have defeated some Sith Lords who are impressive even by Sith Lord standards. This holistically bodes well for his power and combat prowess in the mythos.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It is impressive, but it is not the best feat evah. There's plenty of stuff better. Hell, Ragnos' walking stick outperforms Revan's highest feat, capable of draining entire planets and blowing up temples. DE Luke tanks AT-AT fire and TK crushes one of them.
From another thread:
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tanking Sith lightning is as much feat of raw power (in use) as it is of mastery in defensive applications of the Force. This is a very complex feat on part of any Force-user.A Force-user have to be both remarkably strong and an absolute master of defensive applications of the Force to directly tank Sith lightning without the use of a lightsaber. The stronger a Force-user, the greater are his chances to contain Sith lightning bursts accordingly.
A Force-user can have great knowledge of defensive applications of the Force but he will miserably fail to put such talent to effective use without considerable raw power to complement his abilities.
Every Jedi receives training in defensive applications of the Force (including Tutaminis) but only the most powerful among them can tank lethal Force powers without the use of a lightsaber.
Malgus's struggle in this kind of scenario is a sure-shot indication of how difficult this feat is to pull off for even remarkably powerful Force-users.
Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.
From SWTERC (2012):
Scourge reveals to the Emperor Nyris's plot against him, presenting him with evidence of her treachery. The Emperor orders the Imperial Guard to strike against Nyris. Using the chaos of this reprisal as cover, Scourge and Meetra free Revan but are nearly stopped by Nyris. Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyris's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.
Make no mistake, Revan can be extremely lethal in offensive use of the Force. In-fact, he redirected Nyriss's lightning back at her which is a sign of his enormous offensive power.
Ragnos's weapons are irrelevant; Luke didn't crush any AT-AT with his TK abilities and him deflecting firepower of one isn't such a big deal. Revan could match or exceed this level of performance as well since it would take 4 Basilisks to overwhelm him with their combined firepower. Basilisks are huge and impressive tanks; a lone Basilisk is more dangerous then AT-AT because of its flight abilities.
Also, inanimate objects do not match the power of the Force. It is much easier for a powerful Force-user to destroy a tank then another powerful Force-user. Look no further then "Satele versus Malgus" showdown # 2 to understand this point.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Says you.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And Meetra's opinion of her former leader and one who inspires dying loyalty (Even Malak admitted as much) is not definitive. Nihilus could eat an entire planet of Force users; I'd be lying if I said Revan could overcome him.
I won't be surprised by the possibility of Revan having an answer for Nihilus's powers. What if Revan manages to create a loop between them like he did with Nyriss in a (hypothetical) confrontation?
Nihilus could lay waste to an entire world but could still loose to a single "elite" individual in a direct confrontation. Such is the level of ambiguity in the Star Wars mythos. Revan can/could attack him from considerable distance with his own Force powers and I don't think that Nihilus would last long in such a scenario.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Barriss Offee as a padawan danced on Anson for the natives and twirled her saber so fast it appeared as a solid disk of light. This doesn't prove anything.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Elaborate. Or this means nothing.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So was little Anakin in TPM, who was an excellent pod racer thanks to precog and reflexes.
Revan's command of the Force outstrips that of majority. He also have enormous combat experience under his belt. He can hang with the likes of Plagueis.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Then you misrepresented yourself by presenting it as an absolute.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Not saying you are wrong, but can you give me proof someone has done that?
It's not at all that hard. The flashpoint is barely mid-30s. I also spec'd into the lightning/dps tree, so I can spam lightning all day without touching my Force reserves and major lightning attacks strike twice and have a higher chance to crit, among other things. SI is still a very vicious class if played right.
I also have 17k HP, so yeah. Revan isn't going to kill me anytime soon. I didn't even need to heal during the HK segment, because Force Storm stuns and wrecks his adds and he's apparently weak against Thundering Blast.
Also, I am too tired to line by line with SwG, so I'll do that later.
You can't go with the SWTOR logic. In that case, Dread Masters require an op team to kill where Vitiate is killed by the Knight only. Does that make the Masters more powerful? Not at all...
I think Plagueis and Revan both reached the secrets of the force equally but in different areas. Revan mastered light and dark side perfectly and survived for centuries. Plagueis had no enemies fighting him so he had the chance to study the force and manipulate it. Revan was constantly on war and experienced great events in the galaxy. I would say they are equal in force usage but Revan should have the upper hand on saber fighting an is more likely a better warrior so I think Revan would take this.
Originally posted by Sinious
You can't go with the SWTOR logic. In that case, Dread Masters require an op team to kill where Vitiate is killed by the Knight only. Does that make the Masters more powerful? Not at all...
I think Plagueis and Revan both reached the secrets of the force equally but in different areas. Revan mastered light and dark side perfectly and survived for centuries. Plagueis had no enemies fighting him so he had the chance to study the force and manipulate it. Revan was constantly on war and experienced great events in the galaxy. I would say they are equal in force usage but Revan should have the upper hand on saber fighting an is more likely a better warrior so I think Revan would take this.
Originally posted by Sinious
You can't go with the SWTOR logic. In that case, Dread Masters require an op team to kill where Vitiate is killed by the Knight only. Does that make the Masters more powerful? Not at all...
I think Plagueis and Revan both reached the secrets of the force equally but in different areas. Revan mastered light and dark side perfectly and survived for centuries. Plagueis had no enemies fighting him so he had the chance to study the force and manipulate it. Revan was constantly on war and experienced great events in the galaxy. I would say they are equal in force usage but Revan should have the upper hand on saber fighting an is more likely a better warrior so I think Revan would take this.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
no. there is bro.
Hard mode Revan? Also ,some people are tragically missing the point. Revan is impossible to canonically measure up against the Sith heroes of TOR. We simply have no idea when they fought him and how.
Also, I don't have an hour to reply to SwG so you get postponed yet again.