Yoda vs Hero of Tython

Started by Stealth Moose4 pages

Yoda's edge over Dooku needs some context. For one,Yoda struggled at first and Dooku actually tagged him with his saber. After this, Dooku loses his composure and his anger gives way to fear and Yoda begins beating him. Yoda was still expending a lot of energy. Dooku is 6'4", and Yoda a fraction of that size.

Regarding smarts, Yoda has the most straightforward battle plan of any Jedi: swing until they die, and if the Force is used, counter or redirect. The guy can redirect orbital missiles and shield himself from the vacuum of space, but when it comes to enemy combatants he just flails at them with his shoto.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda's edge over Dooku needs some context. For one,Yoda struggled at first and Dooku actually tagged him with his saber. After this, Dooku loses his composure and his anger gives way to fear and Yoda begins beating him. Yoda was still expending a lot of energy. Dooku is 6'4", and Yoda a fraction of that size.

Simply wrong. Dooku only tagged him because Yoda rescued a hostage and Dooku took advantage of the opening. And even then Yoda was gonna take him tot he curb.


Regarding smarts, Yoda has the most straightforward battle plan of any Jedi: swing until they die, and if the Force is used, counter or redirect. The guy can redirect orbital missiles and shield himself from the vacuum of space, but when it comes to enemy combatants he just flails at them with his shoto.

Are you serious? A .66m tall diminutive green creature is perhaps single greatest swordsmaster the galaxy has ever seen. Think about that for a second. Imagine if the greatest swordsman in our world were .66m tall.

He invented a form that works for his small size, and mastered it to the highest degree. His strategy is not flailing at them with a shoto. His strategy is to spin around his opponent and literally duel circles around him. This capitalizes on his speed and remarkable strength. You cannot be an idiot and outduel Darth Sidious who literally can and does use all 7 forms of lightsaber combat at once.

Also I'd imagine that being a master of the 7 forms he does in fact utilize parts of the other forms for combat.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He invented a form that works for his small size,

Did he?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did he?

Yeah, Yoda's usage of Ataru is unique.

-Master Vandar Tokare utilized telekinetics to float and battle as well as wielding his blades via TK.
-Master Even Piell utilized all 7 forms.

Yoda is perhaps the only Jedi in the mythos who is able to use acrobatics to that degree being able to batter his opponents defenses in an omni-directional manner. Even Dooku who was familiar with Ataru and its "ridiculous acrobatics" was unable to capitalize on any of the forms weaknesses when faced with Yoda.

So... no, he didn't invent anything?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So... no, he didn't invent anything?

Reinvented imo, like Kenobi did with Soresu.

Kenobi didn't reinvent Soresu. 😐

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi didn't reinvent Soresu. 😐

You're right.

"In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living
Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."
This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had
protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even
proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form
in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all
Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from
blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and
defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.
"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the
power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataru—"
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my
weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light.
Master Yoda's Ataru is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of
reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you?
What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually
thought of it that way.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had
said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I
invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing
form—or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but
really—"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are,
and Grievous will never defeat you."

In this passage here though it makes Yoda's Ataru seem apart from the other demonstrations of it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Simply wrong. Dooku only tagged him because Yoda rescued a hostage and Dooku took advantage of the opening. And even then Yoda was gonna take him tot he curb.

On rethinking it, you may be right. I will reread the passage later.

Are you serious?

It's funny how no one can ever tell.

A .66m tall diminutive green creature is perhaps single greatest swordsmaster the galaxy has ever seen. Think about that for a second. Imagine if the greatest swordsman in our world were .66m tall.

That's kind of misleading though. Yoda is perhaps the greatest duelist in his era and is exceptionally small. However, as Qui-Gon Jinn pointed out, his potential is capped and his body in less than peak condition. He is visibly winded after fighting Dooku for a short amount of time, and is utterly exhausted after his duel with Sidious. He has no real staying power, and truly powerful duelists can wear him out because he has to expend more energy to compensate for his small stature and lack of physical mass and muscle behind his swings. He does amazingly well; I'm not saying Yoda is a loser or weak as a kitten; but the HoT could probably work him into a sweat and win. The Hero is noted as being an exceptional duelist barely landing on Tython, and later IIRC is called the greatest duelist in the Order in the presence of Satele.

Here's some things to consider:

1. Yoda's visibly winded against a Makashi master and expert duelist who himself is an archaic reminder of older age style dueling. Makashi is explicitly said to be the best saber to saber style in the universe and became a relic after the Battle of Ruusan.

2. Yoda has not overcome anyone entirely with the Force except for Ventress, who herself is a weakling against the likes of Sidious, Dooku, etc. in the Force as well. It's unlikely his prodigious Force talent will make him overcome the Hero as well. Neph posted some good feats in the respect thread which indicate as much and saber usage is the more common means of disposing an enemy close to one's self in strength.

3. HoT could possibly be a master of Makashi and have an off-the-charts level Force potential like Exar Kun or Revan did. They're noted in the log entry after defeating Vitiate as being too much for the Sith Emperor, who himself is superior in general power to Yoda.

He invented a form that works for his small size, and mastered it to the highest degree.

How did he invent Ataru, which existed thousands of years before him? He may have adapted the premise to his unusual size and limitations, but he didn't invent it.

His strategy is not flailing at them with a shoto. His strategy is to spin around his opponent and literally duel circles around him. This capitalizes on his speed and remarkable strength. You cannot be an idiot and outduel Darth Sidious who literally can and does use all 7 forms of lightsaber combat at once.

1. Yet Yoda never attacks any of his enemies from above or behind. In fact, when he leaps behind Dooku, he doesn't hit the Sith Lord at all, and when he does the same thing to Sidious, he leaps back in front of Sidious before striking the Sith Lord's front with his blade in midair. Yoda does not capitalize on his speed and mobility any more than to just swing at the enemy really fast in an attempt to overwhelm them. This ties in with his limited stamina; he's already fighting at a disadvantage and his style does not conserve energy, so he's at a disadvantage to anyone who can just duel him to a standstill.

2. I'm not sure when Sidious uses all 7 forms at once. I'm aware he knows them, but with this kind of logic so does Dooku, Mace, Maul, and Yoda. Fact is, they each use different approaches. Sidious is primarily a Juyo user, which makes sense because it is a form grown out of previous forms and then embellished.

Also I'd imagine that being a master of the 7 forms he does in fact utilize parts of the other forms for combat.

Right, but you can master something and still be inferior to another combatant. Case in point: Grieveous had proficiency or mastery in 7 forms from Dooku, yet Obi_Wan took him out. Granted, he is a muggle but the point stands form mastery in itself is not victory granted.

The saber forms are also fighting philosophies and while you can learn them all, maybe only one rings true with your own internal method. For example, Kit Fisto used Shii-Cho, despite it being a "beginner form" because it rang true with him. He used it above and beyond what Obi-Wan considered the norm, adapting it to better suit his morphology. Dooku, a lover of the archaic and competitive, mastered Makashi. This form made him one of the most formidable duelists in the era, and again he made Yoda pant after a minute or two of trading blades. Either Yoda forgot his inhaler that day or he expends more energy to fight a Makashi user than someone else like say, Sidious (Yoda lasted much longer against Sidious before he became tired and he had already fought his way through the Jedi Temple earlier that day).

If we find out HoT is a bonafide Makashi user, in an era when Makashi is the penultimate form for badassery, this is a deadly advantage in combat. As it is, the feats for the character and lavish praise their elders give them is indicative of a prodigy bordering on Exar Kun levels of expertise.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

That's kind of misleading though. Yoda is perhaps the greatest duelist in his era and is exceptionally small. However, as Qui-Gon Jinn pointed out, his potential is capped and his body in less than peak condition. He is visibly winded after fighting Dooku for a short amount of time, and is utterly exhausted after his duel with Sidious. He has no real staying power, and truly powerful duelists can wear him out because he has to expend more energy to compensate for his small stature and lack of physical mass and muscle behind his swings. He does amazingly well; I'm not saying Yoda is a loser or weak as a kitten; but the HoT could probably work him into a sweat and win. The Hero is noted as being an exceptional duelist barely landing on Tython, and later IIRC is called the greatest duelist in the Order in the presence of Satele.

Being winded means nothing. And considering the average saber duel doesn't last more than 45 seconds that means nothing.


Here's some things to consider:

1. Yoda's visibly winded against a Makashi master and expert duelist who himself is an archaic reminder of older age style dueling. Makashi is explicitly said to be the best saber to saber style in the universe and became a relic after the Battle of Ruusan.

So what? Dooku and Sidious were both exhausted after their respective duels against Yoda as well. Keeping up with his speed and power would wind anyone.


2. Yoda has not overcome anyone entirely with the Force except for Ventress, who herself is a weakling against the likes of Sidious, Dooku, etc. in the Force as well. It's unlikely his prodigious Force talent will make him overcome the Hero as well. Neph posted some good feats in the respect thread which indicate as much and saber usage is the more common means of disposing an enemy close to one's self in strength.

Well he TK'd an army of Droidekas, and Darth Sidious himself. So yes he most certainly could TK the likes of the HoT.


3. HoT could possibly be a master of Makashi and have an off-the-charts level Force potential like Exar Kun or Revan did. They're noted in the log entry after defeating Vitiate as being too much for the Sith Emperor, who himself is superior in general power to Yoda.

Wrong on two accounts.
1. Exar Kun and Revan were most certainly not too much for Vitiate, and neither was the HoT.
2. As far as Force Potential goes, Yoda had the highest midi-chlorian count as far as we know except for Anakin.
3. Vitiate is not superior in general power to Yoda. Yoda has better TK feats and excellent deflection feats. Vitiate almost got killed by the Jedi Exile.


How did he invent Ataru, which existed thousands of years before him? He may have adapted the premise to his unusual size and limitations, but he didn't invent it.

Reinvented.


1. Yet Yoda never attacks any of his enemies from above or behind. In fact, when he leaps behind Dooku, he doesn't hit the Sith Lord at all, and when he does the same thing to Sidious, he leaps back in front of Sidious before striking the Sith Lord's front with his blade in midair. Yoda does not capitalize on his speed and mobility any more than to just swing at the enemy really fast in an attempt to overwhelm them. This ties in with his limited stamina; he's already fighting at a disadvantage and his style does not conserve energy, so he's at a disadvantage to anyone who can just duel him to a standstill.

Wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ_eu5BxAsU
1:33-1:35 he attacks twice while midair.
Dooku's getting pushed around that whole fight.

1:48 again he attacks while on a platform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE
2:01
Seriously rewatch it.


2. I'm not sure when Sidious uses all 7 forms at once. I'm aware he knows them, but with this kind of logic so does Dooku, Mace, Maul, and Yoda. Fact is, they each use different approaches. Sidious is primarily a Juyo user, which makes sense because it is a form grown out of previous forms and then embellished.

No its stated by the choreographer that Sidious doesn't have one style but all of them. He proves this when he wtf pwns Maul and Savage with Jar'Kai


Right, but you can master something and still be inferior to another combatant. Case in point: Grieveous had proficiency or mastery in 7 forms from Dooku, yet Obi_Wan took him out. Granted, he is a muggle but the point stands form mastery in itself is not victory granted.

Terrible example. Mace Windu gave Kenobi the accolade as not only THE master of Soresu, but also the best person for taking down Grievous.


The saber forms are also fighting philosophies and while you can learn them all, maybe only one rings true with your own internal method. For example, Kit Fisto used Shii-Cho, despite it being a "beginner form" because it rang true with him. He used it above and beyond what Obi-Wan considered the norm, adapting it to better suit his morphology. Dooku, a lover of the archaic and competitive, mastered Makashi. This form made him one of the most formidable duelists in the era, and again he made Yoda pant after a minute or two of trading blades. Either Yoda forgot his inhaler that day or he expends more energy to fight a Makashi user than someone else like say, Sidious (Yoda lasted much longer against Sidious before he became tired and he had already fought his way through the Jedi Temple earlier that day).

Except anyone who fights against Yoda will be panting after 30 seconds.
"The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered
with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the
battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious
shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired
man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail."--ROTS novel


If we find out HoT is a bonafide Makashi user, in an era when Makashi is the penultimate form for badassery, this is a deadly advantage in combat. As it is, the feats for the character and lavish praise their elders give them is indicative of a prodigy bordering on Exar Kun levels of expertise.

Except Yoda is above Exar Kun levels of expertise. It's blatantly stated that NONE of the characters from his era were supposed to be stronger than Sidious. The same Sidious who Yoda exhausted and pushed to the limits of his power.

Hmmm. You both make good arguments. However, taking out a Force titan such as Vitiate speaks for itself. Sidious and Vitiate are imo very, very close [with Sidious edging it out due to mastery of lightsaber combat] and the fact that Yoda wasn't able to defeat Sidious but the HoT was able to defeat Vitiate speaks volumes of his skill and power. You can't take HoT's defeat of Vitiate lightly and I think this feat should be considered when talking HoT vs. Yoda.

Perhaps Yoda is the more knowledgeable and more skilled combatant overall, but I believe HoT can give him a run for his money. It'd be an extremely close fight. If Yoda wins, it'd be the fight of his life. That's how close these two guys are.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Being winded means nothing. And considering the average saber duel doesn't last more than 45 seconds that means nothing.

You do realize that Form IV can be exhausting?

Form IV requires heavy use of the Force in martial aspects of combat.

Yoda preferred Form IV because of his small stature which would make it difficult for his opponents to hit him in close combat situations and the Grand Master could afford to expend enormous amount of energies on this dueling style due to his great affinity with the Force. Yoda's mindset was to quickly cut down his opponents with his great speed, martial and combat skills using Form IV. However, prolonged duels wouldn't work in favor of Yoda as apparent from his battles against other powerful Force-users.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So what? Dooku and Sidious were both exhausted after their respective duels against Yoda as well. Keeping up with his speed and power would wind anyone.

This depends upon following;

1. How the confrontation plays out;
2. What setting is involved;
3. How much efficient, calculative and refined the opponent is in the matters of combat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Well he TK'd an army of Droidekas, and Darth Sidious himself. So yes he most certainly could TK the likes of the HoT.

HoT can TK the likes of Yoda as well.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wrong on two accounts.
1. Exar Kun and Revan were most certainly not too much for Vitiate, and neither was the HoT.
2. As far as Force Potential goes, Yoda had the highest midi-chlorian count as far as we know except for Anakin.
3. Vitiate is not superior in general power to Yoda. Yoda has better TK feats and excellent deflection feats. Vitiate almost got killed by the Jedi Exile.

Actually, Vitiate is on a whole new level in comparison to Yoda; the former have defeated whole Councils of powerful Force-users with his abilities.

And how can you compare Vitiate and Yoda in the context of Force potential? You can't.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Reinvented.

Correction: modified/customized.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Terrible example. Mace Windu gave Kenobi the accolade as not only THE master of Soresu, but also the best person for taking down Grievous.

And this suggests that the likes of Windu, Anakin and Yoda were not capable of defeating Grievous? Give me a break.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except anyone who fights against Yoda will be panting after 30 seconds.
"The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered
with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the
battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious
shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired
man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail."--ROTS novel

Sidious one-shotted Yoda early on but wasted the opportunity to kill the Grand Master. The remainder of the duel was a long one with periodic lightsaber clashes. Sidious eventually ended up exhausted by heavy use of the Force.

---

HoT have demonstrated remarkable combat efficiency during his mission on Dromund Kaas. He knows how to make the most out of his circumstances and efficiently utilize his resources.

---

This (hypothetical) duel is not easy for both individuals involved but HoT is likely to exhaust Yoda earlier and eventually find an opening to undermine him to prevail.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except Yoda is above Exar Kun levels of expertise. It's blatantly stated that NONE of the characters from his era were supposed to be stronger than Sidious. The same Sidious who Yoda exhausted and pushed to the limits of his power.

Exar Kun and Revan understood the importance of unpredictability. This is why both are among the most dangerous and capable combatants of the mythos, Revan even more-so then the other.

Sidious could have killed Yoda, if he had not been over-confident. It surprises me that Sidious seemingly learned nothing from his experience with previous Jedi Strike Team. So much for his tactical brilliance.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You do realize that Form IV can be exhausting?

Yeah its requires the most physical prowess of any of the 7 forms imo.


Form IV requires heavy use of the Force in martial aspects of combat.

Yoda preferred Form IV because of his small stature which would make it difficult for his opponents to hit him in close combat situations and the Grand Master could afford to expend enormous amount of energies on this dueling style due to his great affinity with the Force. Yoda's mindset was to quickly cut down his opponents with his great speed, martial and combat skills using Form IV. However, prolonged duels wouldn't work in favor of Yoda as apparent from his battles against other powerful Force-users.

Which is why he dueled Sidious for several minutes. Any idea of Yoda's endurance problems were thrown right out the window when he and Sidious fought several minutes.


This depends upon following;

1. How the confrontation plays out;
2. What setting is involved;
3. How much efficient, calculative and refined the opponent is in the matters of combat.

Dooku's one of the if not the greatest master of Makashi in history. He's the definition of effective, calculative and being refined in combat, and yet he retreated from Yoda, twice, once even with the old Master wounded.

So wounded Yoda>arguably the greatest Makashi master on a Dark Side nexus.


HoT can TK the likes of Yoda as well.

Highly doubtful considering no one in the mythos has managed that.


Actually, Vitiate is on a whole new level in comparison to Yoda; the former have defeated whole Councils of powerful Force-users with his abilities.

None of which are admissible in the context of a versus forum. Also Yoda disarmed with the man who utterly fodderized thee of the greatest blade masters the Jedi Order has ever produced.


And how can you compare Vitiate and Yoda in the context of Force potential? You can't.

Uhh because Yoda has superior TK showings to the Emperor. He threw around 300meter vessels fully loaded with thousands of battle droids and several tanks with mere gestures.


And this suggests that the likes of Windu, Anakin and Yoda were not capable of defeating Grievous? Give me a break.

Jesus people sure do misread quotes. Its not that Windu, Anakin and Yoda weren't capable of defeating Grievous. Its that Kenobi was the best choice to defeat Grievous.


Sidious one-shotted Yoda early on but wasted the opportunity to kill the Grand Master. The remainder of the duel was a long one with periodic lightsaber clashes. Sidious eventually ended up exhausted by heavy use of the Force.

Red herring. If Darth Sidious blasted anyone who was off guard with lightning it'd be their undoing.


HoT have demonstrated remarkable combat efficiency during his mission on Dromund Kaas. He knows how to make the most out of his circumstances and efficiently utilize his resources.

And Yoda did not on his mission to Coruscant when he cut through a battalion of the most elite soldiers in the galaxy to get to the Jedi Temple.


This (hypothetical) duel is not easy for both individuals involved but HoT is likely to exhaust Yoda earlier and eventually find an opening to undermine him to prevail.

The only person in history to land a blow on Yoda is Darth Tyranus, and that was because he was concerned with a hostage. The HoT has absolutely nothing suggesting he can match even Sidious in a saber duel, let alone the Jedi who was able to disarm him of his lightsaber. Yoda has force feats that utterly crush his and swordsmanship that shits on his. Again Yoda disarmed the man who utterly crushed three of the greatest swordsmen the order has ever produced.


Exar Kun and Revan understood the importance of unpredictability. This is why both are among the most dangerous and capable combatants of the mythos, Revan even more-so then the other.

Cool story bro.


Sidious could have killed Yoda, if he had not been over-confident. It surprises me that Sidious seemingly learned nothing from his experience with previous Jedi Strike Team. So much for his tactical brilliance. [/B]

And Yoda could have killed Sidious when he disarmed him and shoving his lightning back in his face but for some erroneous reason jumps to a different pod. But that's entirely irrelevant to the current discussion.

That being said there's a VERY good reason Sidious elects to run from Yoda rather than face him in direct combat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Highly doubtful considering no one in the mythos has managed that.

The only person in history to land a blow on Yoda is Darth Tyranus, and that was because he was concerned with a hostage.

Well Yoda has only been in 3 duels in the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Yoda has only been in 3 duels in the mythos.

And sparred with Windu. Not that it matters, unless your name was Mace Windu, Dooku, Sidious or maybe Anakin you'd last all of a few against Yoda before he bifurcated you.

The point is that he's dueled against two of the most powerful Dark Lords in the history of the Galaxy and the only time one landed a blow on him was when he was distracted.

I know. I just think its kind of silly to make a big deal out of 'no-one in history has done X to him!' when we've only seen him in 3 actual fights.

Originally posted by Nephthys
..
Oh how I loathe you.

HoT can suck a fat dick.

Geez, keep it PG-13. We'll bang, ok?

Your butthurt is juvenile, Loneness. Stop trolling.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Geez, keep it PG-13. We'll bang, ok?

Please tell me that was a mans1ayer reference.