Lords of chaos/order should take this fairly easily, imo.
Lords of Order battle with the Lords of Chaos determines the fate of entire realities and dimensions (who's who v2 #10):
http://i.imgur.com/HmAM5Rf.jpg?1
That was confirmed in the events of Dr Fate v2 (ill post the necessary scans if needed). We also see that an explosion of Chaos/Order created universes (plural) in Dr Fate v2 #6:
http://i.imgur.com/fqW5ZzZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0cAoEzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zAJVUTB.jpg
Their multiversal power was also confirmed in DC Heroes: Atlas of DCU guidebook, but it's more than hundred pages so i can't find the particular statement where this is mentioned, i remember reading it though.
Anyway, all lords of chaos + lords of order are multiversal, so they should win, without a doubt against the skyfathers.
Originally posted by Cogito
SkyfathersEdit: ^ Look, that's nice and all, but it doesn't really mean anything. Nabu was the most powerful Lord of Order, and his best is (imo) below Odin. He's good and all, but he's not really universal, let alone multiversal.
Don't forget Fate (Who is overall more impressive than Nabu) and Kismet. Not to mention the beings that warped reality. Can't think of their names.
Originally posted by Cogito
SkyfathersEdit: ^ Look, that's nice and all, but it doesn't really mean anything. Nabu was the most powerful Lord of Order, and his best is (imo) below Odin. He's good and all, but he's not really universal, let alone multiversal.
Doesn't really mean anything? it's on panel + bio ............. and + a guidebook, here it is, DC Heroes: Atlas of the DCU:
http://i.imgur.com/sbsPXEv.png?1
Confirming again that the struggle between chaos/order is universal at the very least.
i never said that they are individually multiversal, but collectively they are, no denying it.
If you deny on panel evidence + bio + guidebook, well then, i can't really help you.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Don't forget Fate (Who is overall more impressive than Nabu) and Kismet. Not to mention the beings that warped reality. Can't think of their names.
I'm sorry, you bring up Lords of Order and Chaos and I go to the big ones -- the ones who actually have some feats -- Nabu, Shazam, and Mordru. Their best feats include things like pocket dimension creation and the like, but I don't think that's out of the range of the Skyfathers. On the average end they're below Skyfather, being matched by teams like the JSA and LoSH. Ultimately I don't think those teams would seriously challenge high end Skyfathers.
I'm not going to get into Kismet because she's really ambiguous by definition, and has even more ambiguous feats.
Originally posted by Cogito
I'm sorry, you bring up Lords of Order and Chaos and I go to the big ones -- the ones who actually have some feats -- Nabu, Shazam, and Mordru. Their best feats include things like pocket dimension creation and the like, but I don't think that's out of the range of the Skyfathers. On the average end they're below Skyfather, being matched by teams like the JSA and LoSH. Ultimately I don't think those teams would seriously challenge high end Skyfathers.I'm not going to get into Kismet because she's really ambiguous by definition, and has even more ambiguous feats.
Mordru, Fate, Nabu, SHAZAM, Kismet, Ynar all have good feats. That's just the top of my head. What Marvel Skyfathers (the ones listed) match those?
Originally posted by operator616
Doesn't really mean anything? it's on panel + bio ............. and + a guidebook, here it is, DC Heroes: Atlas of the DCU:http://i.imgur.com/sbsPXEv.png?1
Confirming again that the struggle between chaos/order is universal at the very least.
i never said that they are individually multiversal, but collectively they are, no denying it.
If you deny on panel evidence + bio + guidebook, well then, i can't really help you.
The conflict between Order and Chaos has always been shown as an eternal conflict that threatens reality -- that much is even stated in the first scan you provided. I'm not as impressed by potential destructive effects that may take forever to come about /shrug
Then your scan here doesn't really say anything. It says Chaos beat Order, and that effect would be felt in the next universal cycle. Nothing about that conflict directly ending the 3rd yuga.
As we saw in DoV, when the Spectre killed all of the Lords of Order and Chaos, there are rules and side effects of their existing that cause consequences. They play a vital role in creation (usually mentioned as destined or fated) and when one side or the other dominates the other it triggers the start of a new age.
^ Spectre didn't kill all of them, and he is above them, that was confirmed before DoV, which isn't supposed to diminish their status in any way.
Their conflict is eternal because chaos and order balance each other out, but when chaos gets the upper hand, then this happens (Dr fate v2 #10):
http://i.imgur.com/dZwoRU4.jpg
that aside, id like to know how the skyfathers handle Kismet, who as we saw in the Dominus storyline is Dominus' peer and he wants her status as the illuminator of All realities:
http://i.imgur.com/Mko8iOt.jpg
-----
same kismet (Lord of order) who can control the basic fabric of the universe: (JLA-Z #2):
http://i.imgur.com/JFDX8Ei.jpg
Same kismet who can warp reality to her wims (superman ultimate guide):
http://i.imgur.com/HCVgGWi.jpg?1
----
That's of course apart from the evidence already posted where chaos/order explosion creates entire universes.
Originally posted by operator616
^ Spectre didn't kill all of them, and he is above them, that was confirmed before DoV, which isn't supposed to diminish their status in any way.Their conflict is eternal because chaos and order balance each other out, but when chaos gets the upper hand, then this happens (Dr fate v2 #10):
http://i.imgur.com/dZwoRU4.jpg
that aside, id like to know how the skyfathers handle Kismet, who as we saw in the Dominus storyline is Dominus' peer and he wants her status as the illuminator of All realities:
http://i.imgur.com/Mko8iOt.jpg
-----
same kismet (Lord of order) who can control the basic fabric of the universe: (JLA-Z #2):
http://i.imgur.com/JFDX8Ei.jpg
Same kismet who can warp reality to her wims (superman ultimate guide):
http://i.imgur.com/HCVgGWi.jpg?1
----
That's of course apart from the evidence already posted where chaos/order explosion creates entire universes.
Didn't Ynar warp reality with one other mystic?
Originally posted by operator616
^ Spectre didn't kill all of them, and he is above them, that was confirmed before DoV, which isn't supposed to diminish their status in any way.
So yes, he killed them. Several of their deaths were shown on panel, the rest were killed off panel. The point of my mentioning DoV was not to say that losing to the Spectre was a low feat (it isn't, of course), but merely supporting their relationship to the universe.
Originally posted by operator616
Their conflict is eternal because chaos and order balance each other out, but when chaos gets the upper hand, then this happens (Dr fate v2 #10):
This is supporting my point, that the Lords of Order and Chaos don't so much destroy reality as their balance is crucial to the universe's well-being.
Originally posted by operator616
that aside, id like to know how the skyfathers handle Kismet, who as we saw in the Dominus storyline is Dominus' peer and he wants her status as the illuminator of All realities:http://i.imgur.com/Mko8iOt.jpg
-----
same kismet (Lord of order) who can control the basic fabric of the universe: (JLA-Z #2):
http://i.imgur.com/JFDX8Ei.jpg
Same kismet who can warp reality to her wims (superman ultimate guide):
http://i.imgur.com/HCVgGWi.jpg?1
----
That's of course apart from the evidence already posted where chaos/order explosion creates entire universes.
Other than handbooks, I don't know of any instances where Kismet has been referred to as a Lord of Order. When she was first introduced, she was basically DC's version of Eternity -- an abstract not a Lord of Order. Anyways, she's more hype than action.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Didn't Ynar warp reality with one other mystic?
Yes with Vandeamon. Ynar being a Lord of Order and Vandeamon being a Lord of Chaos both of whom had grown tired of their eternal conflict and instead chose to serve their own self interests. Classic Fate also warped it back at the end of the tale ( part of the Immortal Dr fate mini).
Originally posted by CogitoSpectre: "I've destroyed all the Lords of Order and Chaos, save you. You're the last surviving guardian of the Ninth Age of Magic."
Nabu: "And the most powerful"
This is supporting my point, that the Lords of Order and Chaos don't so much destroy reality as their balance is crucial to the universe's well-being.
Depending on the tale there are some stories that also support the concept that the creation of the universe was due to their conflict and the balance that results. In one Story (unfortunately I can't remember the issue) Phantom Stranger stated that the Presence created them so that their conflict would result in life. In another ( V
Dr fate shortly after Inza Nelson took on the role of Fate we see the Lords of order referencing their role in the creation of life. Considering the number of different creation myths that have been played out within DC ( 4th world Omnibus, Rama Kushna's statements in early Deadman tales and several others) I've long held the view that the the energy discharged by the conflict between the two of them caused the God wave that in turn caused everything else. It's the easiest way of keeping ALL contradictory creation myths as canon
Considering the many low showings of Shazam, Shat-Ru, Nabu himself (though for the most part they were in a mortal shell which naturally restricts them) I can't see how anyone can say they would beat marvel Skyfathers. Not to mention there are a LOT less named Lords of order and Chaos with feats we can apply than there are Skyfathers.
I probably don't know every single Lord of Chaos & Order but from what I've seen of Nabu, Mordru and so on (Who are intended to be the most powerful AFAIK) the Skyfathers win. Odin is just too much. I'm assuming we aren't taking into account Supergod Hercules, King or Rune Thor, Dormammu and the rest.
Originally posted by beatboks
Considering he had also not killed Mordru who was shown to be leaving the Rock of Eternity after making Shazam waist most of his prepared amassed power in fighting him when he escaped the rock obviously Nabu wasn't the only one not killed. Though I'd agree Nabu isn't Odin level the closest one of the Lords of order and Chaos who is IMO would be Mordru and only his 30th Century self. Even he isn't quite there
Yeah, Mordru doesn't quite fit in with the Spectre's comments because we did see him leave the RoE alive, and it's his destiny to survive. Some unknown amount of time did pass between when the RoE scene happened and when Nabu confronted the Spectre though, so who knows what might have happened. Given that we saw multiple Lords killed on panel and we got statements that certain Lords were killed, I don't think there's any reason to disregard the statements by two dudes with a certain amount of cosmic awareness (even if one of them was in a poor mental state)
Originally posted by Cogito
Spectre: "I've destroyed all the Lords of Order and Chaos, save you. You're the last surviving guardian of the Ninth Age of Magic."
Nabu: "And the most powerful"So yes, he killed them. Several of their deaths were shown on panel, the rest were killed off panel. The point of my mentioning DoV was not to say that losing to the Spectre was a low feat (it isn't, of course), but merely supporting their relationship to the universe.
This is supporting my point, that the Lords of Order and Chaos don't so much destroy reality as their balance is crucial to the universe's well-being.
Other than handbooks, I don't know of any instances where Kismet has been referred to as a Lord of Order. When she was first introduced, she was basically DC's version of Eternity -- an abstract not a Lord of Order. Anyways, she's more hype than action.
which is false, because Mordru survived it, and had appearances afterwards, Amythest survived as well, as shown in infinite Crisis, and there are other Lords of Order/Chaos who are possibly alive as well.
I don't see how that supports your point tbh, because what the scan tells us is: When Lords of Chaos gain the upper hand, chaos dominates the cosmos and ultimately all creation dies. Just so we're clear, all creation = all universes, according to what's been shown in Dr Fate. I have proof if needed.
Kismet, right from her very first appearance, was said to be associated with lords of chaos and order, though it's often stated that she oversees the pahtways to reality for both, but it's evident that she is on the side of order instead of chaos, simply due to the fact that she's good, unlike Dominus.
Also, It's been literally stated that if Kismet dies, then reality dies with her, in action comics #748:
http://i.imgur.com/khgpCxD.jpg?1
And this applies to all the lords, 1 example from DC comics presents #75, says that a lord of chaos called Chaon, who is necessary for the continuation of existence:
http://i.imgur.com/m5yHnxk.jpg?1
Much like Kismet.
We also have Mordru (at least in the 31st century) has showings that are well above anyone save for Odin, here are universal showings:
absorbs half (the other half went to Glorith) of Infinite Man's power, which gave him control over time and space (though he was later overwhelmed by the whole power) in LoSH v4 #60:
http://i.imgur.com/q2b7uJw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/C3QVd19.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zgx5qP5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E2hLlVB.jpg
And in the 31st century (Lo3W #5), he absorbed the magic of the whole 247 universe (through kinetix):
http://i.imgur.com/Oi7lTkp.jpg
---
And in Adventure comics #370, Mordru has the power to annihilate entire galaxies:
http://i.imgur.com/2gZ0Yzr.jpg
He's also handled the Legion/JLA, pre crisis, and post crisis as well. I have those too, so let me know.
Of course, Odin has that kind of showings, but Zeus and Vishnu (the other 2 most prominent skyfathers) don't, Vishnu doesn't have much appearances to begin with, and there's nothing noteworthy to say about him, Zeus has been consistently shown to be weak, ive posted this on another thread, here it is again:
Hulk vs Hercules #1 (2008):Zeus was hurt by a random spear thrown by one of Cronus' gigantes:
http://i.imgur.com/TIlbiwQ.jpg
5 pages later we see that the wound didn't even heal:
http://i.imgur.com/wI7X2FZ.jpg?1
---
There's also the fact that all the olympian gods (zeus included) can be bfr'd easily if the promethean flame is destroyed.
one example (avengers v1 #49). Typhon did it:
http://i.imgur.com/LBfGLac.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/T2RTV0p.jpgThor/hercules mythologica handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/eBiHGaj.jpg?1
Ares did the exact same thing 51 issues later (in avengers v1 #100).
And Typhon did this again in avengers annual #23. His axe is actually capable of absorbing the flames, and he always attempts to defeat the olympians this way, because it's much easier,
---
Marvel two in one #44, Zeus gets imprisoned by 3 random beats and was dying in the tower of the sun (due to sun's heat):
http://i.imgur.com/9hWggWF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sHjR18r.jpg
I can post more low shoiwngs for the skyfathers.
Kismet > Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu.
Mordru > Zeus and Vishnu.
That's setting aside the other lords of chaos and order (like Phantom Stranger for one)
That's also setting aside the showing i provided at the beginning of the thread, where they collectively create universes.
So id really like to know how can the Skyfathers win.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Didn't Ynar warp reality with one other mystic?
Originally posted by beatboks
Yes with Vandeamon. Ynar being a Lord of Order and Vandeamon being a Lord of Chaos both of whom had grown tired of their eternal conflict and instead chose to serve their own self interests. Classic Fate also warped it back at the end of the tale ( part of the Immortal Dr fate mini).Considering the number of different creation myths that have been played out within DC ( 4th world Omnibus, Rama Kushna's statements in early Deadman tales and several others) I've long held the view that the the energy discharged by the conflict between the two of them caused the God wave that in turn caused everything else. It's the easiest way of keeping ALL contradictory creation myths as canon
Considering the many low showings of Shazam, Shat-Ru, Nabu himself (though for the most part they were in a mortal shell which naturally restricts them) I can't see how anyone can say they would beat marvel Skyfathers. Not to mention there are a LOT less named Lords of order and Chaos with feats we can apply than there are Skyfathers.
Correct though I believe, that happened in a Flash comic.
There are many creation stories which had nothing to do with the godwave, and others that don't fit together at all, so it's impossible to fit them all together, though they mustn't be ignored either, several of them have even secondary evidence backing them up.
I disagree, the skyfathers have low showings as well, Odin is the only one who consistently operates on a level beyond many of the lords of chaos/order.
^ Working some PC feats in there 😬
Anyways, what we keep getting to is the balance between Lords of Order and Chaos being necessary. What happens when that balance is disrupted has no meaning with regards to their power specifically, just as universal destruction has no meaning with regards to Galactus if he dies.
Kismet is a lot of hype and no feats.
