Originally posted by ODG
^ Doombots, Castle Doom and Doom himself probably sh1t on the Elite's feats. But I get that nearly defeating Superman is a hard feat to overcome in many people's minds.
You know, one of the things I've cited several times is "Coldcast's energy abilities have shut down high-end supertech easily, he could shut down groups of Doombots no problem."
And the response?
Doombots.
I do not think you are actually paying attention 🙂
JakeTheBankConsidering the teams and beings a non-prepped Doom can handle and do well against, let alone in the heart of Latveria, to say that there won't be anything there that would require their full effort is...well, a stretch at the very least.
Yes, which is why it's a good thing there's a *team* of heralds here.
There's also the fact that Doombots aren't easily shut down solo
Nope, but Coldcast can shut down Vera Black with an area-effect blast. And she's got an alien tech heart, morphing robotic limbs, forcefields, the works.
While it's not easy, Coldcast is one super who has very little trouble with such foes. It'll drain some of his charge but it won't even keep him from the main event.
and Doom's Mindless Ones aren't easily contained, either.
Agreed. However, there is the Hat, a high-level magical being who uses runes and so on and is an expy of the Authority's Doctor. Even if it takes a lot of effort, he could certainly keep them off the rest of the team.
And there's Doom himself, who, really, speaks for himself when it comes to feats.
Of course, but still, multiple heralds. One of whom can handle the Doombots and automated defenses on his own. Another of whom is major mystic mojo who can deal with mystic defenses.
The 'Doom's defenses will handle it, they have X and Y,' leaves half the Elite, including Chester himself, entirely without anything to do except go for Doom himself.
Doom is certainly nothing to laugh at, but the Elite is a team of such magnitude that his normal no-special-prep defenses just aren't going to cut it. He'll be on his own in very short order, going by the Elite's feats.
Originally posted by Q99
You know, one of the things I've cited several times is "Coldcast's energy abilities have shut down high-end supertech easily, he could shut down groups of Doombots no problem."And the response?
Doombots.
I do not think you are actually paying attention 🙂
Yes, which is why it's a good thing there's a *team* of heralds here.
Nope, but Coldcast can shut down Vera Black with an area-effect blast. And she's got an alien tech heart, morphing robotic limbs, forcefields, the works.
While it's not easy, Coldcast is one super who has very little trouble with such foes. It'll drain some of his charge but it won't even keep him from the main event.
Agreed. However, there is the Hat, a high-level magical being who uses runes and so on and is an expy of the Authority's Doctor. Even if it takes a lot of effort, he could certainly keep them off the rest of the team.
Of course, but still, multiple heralds. One of whom can handle the Doombots and automated defenses on his own. Another of whom is major mystic mojo who can deal with mystic defenses.
The 'Doom's defenses will handle it, they have X and Y,' leaves half the Elite, including Chester himself, entirely without anything to do except go for Doom himself.
Doom is certainly nothing to laugh at, but the Elite is a team of such magnitude that his normal no-special-prep defenses just aren't going to cut it. He'll be on his own in very short order, going by the Elite's feats.
The Avengers had heralds on the team, too. They didn't have an easy time of getting through Latveria's defenses at all. And Stark is a proficient technopath with tons of feats when it comes to shutting down tech and a genius who actually has years of experience dealing with Doom. Hell, I'd imagine that outside of that clown Richards, Iron Man is the guy who's tangled with Doom the most. And even with a team backing him up and the experience and knowledge he has knowing who Doom is, couldn't just barge into Latveria easy squeezy. Avengers/Young Avengers/Magneto likewise didn't have a cakewalk entering Latveria.
As far as Vera Black goes, what does she have that is on the same level or superior to Doom's tech?
Being a high powered magical being in of itself doesn't mean you can BFR Doom's minions, let alone take on Doom himself. This is a guy who, prepless, held his own against Morgan Le Fay and since then, has been described as the most knowledgeable and powerful mystic on Marvel Earth. I'd have to catch up on what Doctor Strange is up to recently since he recently became Sorcerer Supreme again, but Doom's magic had been described as being > Strange's on several occasions.
I really doubt Coldcast can more or less solo Latveria's defenses on his own considering the forces Latveria has repelled. He'd definitely need the rest of the Elite to help him. And that's without factoring in Doom himself entering the fray.
JakeTheBank
The Avengers had heralds on the team, too. They didn't have an easy time of getting through Latveria's defenses at all.
The Avengers didn't have a herald specifically with EM powers good for shutting down defenses, and they almost never have a mage the level of Hat with them.
And most of the time when the Avengers have gone against Latveria, they've only had one or maybe two or their heralds, not the heavy-hitter teams.
Also, how many of those times does Doom not know they're coming? Scenario 1 is no prep, after all.
As far as Vera Black goes, what does she have that is on the same level or superior to Doom's tech?
Physically able to go toe-to-toe with Superman, psychic camouflage, forcefields able to block Superman-level attacks, blasters of massive power, self-repairing, yadda yadda. She's a big ball of top level supertech.
Being a high powered magical being in of itself doesn't mean you can BFR Doom's minions, let alone take on Doom himself.
I didn't say necessarily BFR, I said hold off. Put up runic defenses or the like, or what have you. Though banishing isn't out of the question either, of course.
And Hat does not have to 'take on Doom himself'. The Hat just has to provide mystic support and counter some of Doom's magic defenses while the others take on Doom.
You're acting like each member of the elite has to deal with all of the defenses and Doom, rather than, say, two of 'em dealing with the defenses first while two hit Doom, and then the prior two joining after they're done.
I really doubt Coldcast can more or less solo Latveria's defenses on his own considering the forces Latveria has repelled. He'd definitely need the rest of the Elite to help him. And that's without factoring in Doom himself entering the fray.
Fortunately, he has the entire Elite! But, seriously, his EM abilities *will* take out Doombots, shut down automated blasters, etc. etc.. It's what he does, when it comes to energy powers he's way up there.
Don't forget, any people manning defenses could very easily be on the Elite's side thanks to Manchester as well.
soo, doom is in his castle, a castle with surely enough, has defensess. with him having a full knowledge. yeah, dont see how he could lose, not even mindrape would work, okay it might but doom has some TP resistance. in which case he can buy some time, then proceeds to stomping their asses in.
scenario 2 is a no brainer, anyone who says doom loses, is a carver. 😂
Originally posted by Q99Because Extremis Iron Man and Magneto don't have EM powers good for shutting down defenses, and Scarlet Witch and Wiccan are never with these teams either.
The Avengers didn't have a herald specifically with EM powers good for shutting down defenses, and they almost never have a mage the level of Hat with them.And most of the time when the Avengers have gone against Latveria, they've only had one or maybe two or their heralds, not the heavy-hitter teams.
Also, how many of those times does Doom not know they're coming? Scenario 1 is no prep, after all.
Nobody was referring to Cap's kooky quartet. We've been talking to you about Iron Man's Mighty Avengers team, and the Avengers/Young Avengers/Magneto squad that came knocking. It doesn't look like you're addressing what is actually being said.
Doom didn't know these guys were coming either. Or Nightmare's Army of the Unreal. Or Sinister/Loki. Etc. Etc. We get that out in the open, without Castle Doom and his personal army, and ambushed by bush-league tactics, Dr. Doom can be defeated by someone like... a prepped Morganna le Fay? This isn't that scenario. Neither of them are.