Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbenice try
Whe he was about to become one with the Universe (or become the Universe or God, I can't recall it properly) he rejected the power and God said something like "you did well my son". So no, no feats, just the implications Universe-supreme being, everything was possible.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusWhat? Surtur was going to burn All the Nine Realms, and using
Other-world as a conduit would have burned the entire Multiverse.
Even if you want to assume his fire would have been a spark that
would have grown into a flame, that is still a feat far beyond Universal.
Which is nothing close to anything more than what it was stated to be: "universal."
Any extra affect of any kind needing an external source, like the Nexus,
makes any feat, even just via statements of potential, null/void.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusYou do know that if Odin is capable of negating the totality of that power, protecting the two of them is well within his capabilities? We clearly saw Asgard Space burning, even the portal that they step into.
Does this make Owen = to Beyonder, or anything reasonably close?
No. Owen got stomped in less than two pages.
You have to be powerful to shunt potent energies elsewhere,
but by the time Owen shunted Beyonder's power he was so depleted
he needed to merge with Surfer's power cosmic to repair the Earth.
Imo, Odin had a feat, but did he do something that suggests to me
he can destroy a universe under his own power, or control in any
way shape or form a universal Aspect of Eternity/Infinity,
or the raw materials of an entire Universe? (countless galaxies/stars etc)
Nah, not at all.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusHere you go (The guy with the glasses explains it) along with
some other World Tree related scans from Fraction's run:
Originally posted by operator616I know that you're referring to the Earth X trilogy - Paradise X to be more specific - i just didn't realize that alternate reality showings are usable. And im still not.
Imo, it's the same difference if 616/prime characters show up in alternate world books.
Like GOTG, where 616 Strange and 616 Quasar amongst many others
have involved themselves in.
Heck, while Dr Strange was leaving Alternate Universe 691 (GOTG storyline) to go home (616)
as he passed Time (universeS)
he actually witnessed ripples across Time, from Warlock's/Magus' battle over the incomplete IG,
which was affecting Time across universeS
cause it helped both Strange and GOTG get back to their individual Universes.
I remember that moment when Warlock struggled with Magus back in Infinity War:
Incomplete IG wrecking shop across UniverseS. (this doesn't really relate but it's juicy to know)
Originally posted by operator616Not sure i follow. She needed Wanda's power to tap into the power of the sword:
http://i.imgur.com/4xfyaaR.jpg?1
On panel it's been mentioned many times. 1st issue says that Wanda's power merely bridges the gap between Morgan's power and the sword's (to be able to tap into its power)
http://i.imgur.com/eu1oSYx.jpg?1
2nd issue says the same thing:
http://i.imgur.com/O8D1yGN.jpg?1
10th issue (a recap) says the same:
http://i.imgur.com/sBtMcda.jpg?1And the 3rd issue says that Scarlet Witch's powers is what allows her to wield the sword (to be able to tap into its power):
All the reality-warping was done by the sword.
But I wanted to address something you seemed to forget, although you also conveniently snipped it out of the scan.
The Norn Stones were integral in this feat:
Here's my half of her face where she cements this fact:
"I stole the Mystic Norn Stones and with their Power
And that of the Twilight Sword, I remade blah, blah, blah."
------------------------------------------------------------------
616 Brian, doesn't have these kinds of abilities, he's a brute,
yet he instantly remade a Universe with Excalibur,
and with one stroke killed Jude (a cosmic entity representing 3 major Concepts: Death/Oblivion/Entropy)
Unlike, Twilight, which is riding Morgan Fey's magics,
some stipulation involving Wanda's reality altering abilities,
Plus the freakin Asgardian Norn Stones amping the sword.
Huge difference imo.
Originally posted by Mr Master
This has nothing to do with anything beyond what it is my friend.Which is nothing close to anything more than what it was stated to be: "universal."
Any extra affect of any kind needing an external source, like the Nexus,
makes any feat, even just via statements of potential, null/void.
You denied that it was even Universal earlier but it's on par and then some.
No it doesn't because Surtur was going to use Otherworld as a conduit to channel his fire into the entire Multiverse in order to destroy it. Although Surtur said he didn't need anything at all later:
Like I said, even if we assume his power was the spark that would grow to consume everything, as it's still far beyond Universal for Surtur as it's all the power he had collected up until that point in himself.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Odin simply shunted these fire/energies into the portal,
no different that a near dying Owen Reece shunting millions of
times the power of the infinite Multiverse into a portal leading into the Beyond Realm.Does this make Owen = to Beyonder, or anything reasonably close?
No. Owen got stomped in less than two pages.You have to be powerful to shunt potent energies elsewhere,
but by the time Owen shunted Beyonder's power he was so depleted
he needed to merge with Surfer's power cosmic to repair the Earth.Imo, Odin had a feat, but did he do something that suggests to me
he can destroy a universe under his own power, or control in any
way shape or form a universal Aspect of Eternity/Infinity,
or the raw materials of an entire Universe? (countless galaxies/stars etc)Nah, not at all.
Cool. Let me read this cause I gotta eat now but I wanted to respond really quickly.
I don't remember the Owen scene accurately enough to comment on it. However, it has no reflection on what Odin accomplished nor what the intent was as the entire point of summoning Odin was specifically because he was the only being powerful enough to manipulate such massive energies:
Not to mention Odin's counterpart in the Dark Gods story line held off the Entropy of his Universe with his sheer will. In terms of sheer scale of power, Odin was definitely Universal and then some under Fraction.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Unlike, Twilight, which is riding Morgan Fey's magics,
some stipulation involving Wanda's reality altering abilities,
Plus the freakin Asgardian Norn Stones amping the sword.Huge difference imo.
It was made explicitly clear that Wanda's magic was used to breach the gap between Morgan's magic and the Twilight Sword. And that Morgan used the Twilight Sword to accomplish the feat. At best the Norn Stones were added to the power of the Twilight Sword although even that is sketchy as the reality warping was constantly attributed only to the Twilight Sword. It was made explicitly clear that the sword possessed the power level to destroy and re-create creation:
And as we see in Avengers Prime, it's more then capable of reality warping on it's own.
You seem to be doing a great deal of mental gymnastics when it comes to Asgard and it's denizens. Why is that when you so quickly accept statements regarding other cosmic beings and expect others to do so?
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Norn Stones were integral in this feat:Here's my half of her face where she cements this fact:
"I stole the Mystic [b]Norn Stones
and with their Power
And that of the Twilight Sword, I remade blah, blah, blah."
[/B]
Also, wow. Here's the whole scan:
😐
Morgana makes it explicitly clear that her feat depends on the power of the Twilight Sword and Wanda's magic that allows her to wield it. Throw in the fact that the Twilight Sword was referenced as the source of the reality warping like half a dozen times and Thor even confirms it on his own:
And the intention of the writer is very clear and this is a reading comprehension fail on your part.
The Norn Stones amped Morgana's personal power, but the Twilight Sword is what warped reality.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusYou denied that it was even Universal earlier but it's on par and then some.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusNo it doesn't because Surtur was going to use Otherworld as a conduit to channel his fire into the entire Multiverse in order to destroy it. Although Surtur said he didn't need anything at all later:
Like I said, even if we assume his power was the spark that would grow to consume everything, as it's still far beyond Universal for Surtur as it's all the power he had collected up until that point in himself.
What it's "possibly" capable of using the Nexus is meaningless to me,
since I've seen potential Global powers like Erishkigel/Starbrand become cosmic threats via a Nexus,
even applying some influence in countless realities via the Nexus.
Outside the Nexus though? A chump!
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusI don't remember the Owen scene accurately enough to comment on it. However, it has no reflection on what Odin accomplished nor what the intent was as the entire point of summoning Odin was specifically because he was the only being powerful enough to manipulate such massive energies:
When Odin destroys/remakes or even better creates a universe on panel then we can go wow.
If he ever shows power over a universal Concept I'll give em a bigger wow.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusNot to mention Odin's counterpart in the Dark Gods story line held off the Entropy of his Universe with his sheer will. In terms of sheer scale of power, Odin was definitely Universal and then some under Fraction.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusIt was made explicitly clear that Wanda's magic was used to breach the gap between Morgan's magic and the Twilight Sword. And that Morgan used the Twilight Sword to accomplish the feat. At best the Norn Stones were added to the power of the Twilight Sword although even that is sketchy as the reality warping was constantly attributed only to the Twilight Sword. It was made explicitly clear that the sword possessed the power level to destroy and re-create creation:
Regardless of the percentage it added, it was needed to accomplish the feat.
Which stands to reason that in this instant under these circumstances,
Twilight could Not do it alone. Morgan's power boosted by Wanda's was also included,
measly as it may have been.
Interestingly enough Wanda's been used as a conduit of infinite energy before. Just sayin.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusAnd as we see in Avengers Prime, it's more then capable of reality warping on it's own.
You seem to be doing a great deal of mental gymnastics when it comes to Asgard and it's denizens. Why is that when you so quickly accept statements regarding other cosmic beings and expect others to do so?
I will give you an honest feedback if I feel things have been retconned,
cause like I said, Asgard-Space/Sea of Space was always a Pocket from what I knew.
This whole 'world tree' thingy is twisting things up, and since I'm only getting a peek at the info,
I'm confused,
and therefore wouldn't feel comfortable making a statement with my name on it yet.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusAnd the intention of the writer is very clear
and this is a reading comprehension fail on your part.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Norn Stones amped Morgana's personal power, but the Twilight Sword is what warped reality.
Because of this: (latest statement in the arc)
"I stole the Mystic Norn Stones and with their Power
And that of the Twilight Sword, I remade blah, blah, blah."
Originally posted by Mr Master
Gibberish. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Real simple.
One more time, and ignore you go. No need to insult you back. Simple.That's your opinion/interpretation. And ... I disagree with it.
Because of this: (latest statement in the arc)
"I stole the Mystic [b]Norn Stones
and with their Power
And that of the Twilight Sword, I remade blah, blah, blah." [/B]
And she went to clarify that it was the reality warping was ONLY depended on the Twilight Sword and Scarlet Witch bridging:
Morgana makes it explicitly clear that her feat depends on the power of the Twilight Sword and Wanda's magic that allows her to wield it. Thor even confirms that it has the power to destroy or re-create reality:
I fully admit that Morgan had the power of the Norn Stones as this was stated more then once, but it was also repeatedly clarified that Morgan's reality warping was accomplished through the power of the sword SPECIFICALLY. The Norn Stones amped Morgan's personal power, it was the Twilight Sword however that warped reality. Besides the scans already posted, here are some more:
As a matter of fact, reality reset immediately after Morgan lost control over the sword. What a coincidence that is.
I've seen you stick to the claim that the Infinity Gauntlet is Multiversal based on the fact that you felt more evidence supported this stance over it being Universal despite their being contradictions. And yet here you are arguing this? I'm sorry, but common. 😬
Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.I disagree. Imo, still a universal power via verbal implication.
What it's "possibly" capable of using the Nexus is meaningless to me,
since I've seen potential Global powers like Erishkigel/Starbrand become cosmic threats via a Nexus,
even applying some influence in countless realities via the Nexus.Outside the Nexus though? A chump!
Why are you referencing previous comics in favor of evidence from the event itself when those examples were not referred to in this particular story?
It was specifically pointed out that this was power Surtur amassed himself. Whatever, we're going in circles at this point so I'm done repeating myself on this particular subject. Congratulations I guess.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Odin did exactly what Owen did, and others have done.
Also yes, I agree and accepted "you have to be powerful to shunt potent energies"
but you don't have to be multiversal or universal to shunt energies that exceed your level of energy output.
Completely disagreed based on the implications of the scene and that Odin was specifically needed due to the sheer magnitude of the power.
Originally posted by Mr Master
When Odin destroys/remakes or even better creates a universe on panel then we can go wow.
If he ever shows power over a universal Concept I'll give em a bigger wow.Reading.
At-least you're being a true debater and acknowledging this can't be denied.
Regardless of the percentage it added, it was needed to accomplish the feat.
Which stands to reason that in this instant under these circumstances,
Twilight could Not do it alone. Morgan's power boosted by Wanda's was also included,
measly as it may have been.Interestingly enough Wanda's been used as a conduit of infinite energy before. Just sayin.
No, I said it was a possibility, although a very slim one based on the evidence.
No, it was not as it was specifically referenced more then once that the Twilight Sword was what was warping reality.
It was SPECIFICALLY said that the sword can in fact do it alone. Please look at the scans that I post.
😐
Wanda's reality warping power was used to BRIDGE THE GAP between the sword and Morgan's magic. That is all.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah Rage, I would dispute that characterization of my posts.
Actually, I'm in the process of reading material friend as we speak.
I wanna know about details, possible stipulations, and basically a broader personal picture.I will give you an honest feedback if I feel things have been retconned,
cause like I said, Asgard-Space/Sea of Space was always a Pocket from what I knew.
This whole 'world tree' thingy is twisting things up, and since I'm only getting a peek at the info,
I'm confused,
and therefore wouldn't feel comfortable making a statement with my name on it yet.
That's fine. Let me know if you need issue numbers.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusAnd she went to clarify that it was the reality warping was ONLY depended on the Twilight Sword and Scarlet Witch bridging:
Morgana makes it explicitly clear that her feat depends on the power of the Twilight Sword and Wanda's magic that allows her to wield it.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusThor even confirms that it has the power to destroy or re-create reality
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusI fully admit that Morgan had the power of the Norn Stones as this was stated more then once, but it was also repeatedly clarified that Morgan's reality warping was accomplished through the power of the sword SPECIFICALLY. The Norn Stones amped Morgan's personal power, it was the Twilight Sword however that warped reality. Besides the scans already posted, here are some more:
As a matter of fact, reality reset immediately after Morgan lost control over the sword. What a coincidence that is.
And that last scan strongly suggest what I theorized earlier.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusI've seen you stick to the claim that the Infinity Gauntlet is Multiversal based on the fact that you felt more evidence supported this stance over it being Universal despite their being contradictions. And yet here you are arguing this? I'm sorry, but common.
Originally posted by Mr Master
There are scans
that suggests she's using Wanda solely as an amp to bridge herself to Twilight,
there are scans that suggests she's using Wanda's hex/reality altering powers
to boost Twilight's affects.I believe its possible.
But I also think it takes a proper measure of force wielding it.I disagree.
From where I stand she possibly used a personal amp via Wanda,
and definitely used the Norn Stones in culmination with Twilight
to do it's thing.And that last scan strongly suggest what I theorized earlier.
Bad example. When the IG and even Incomplete IG have multiversal feats under their belts,
heck, the IG did something unheard of, when Thanos sent out a reality ripple,
that landed in the Beyond Realm located beyond/outside the ends of all creation.
Man, the Incomplete IG left residual affects across all of Time,
where Dr Strange witnessed this in an Alternate Universe
representing the 31st Century of the Earth-616,
namely Reality-691. (GOTG alternate universe)
Wanda was used solely as a bridge between Morgan's Celtic magic and the Asgardian magic of the Twilight Sword. Her power did not amp the Twilight Sword's reality amping.
If you have scans that indicate otherwise, please post them.
The last scan says that Wanda was used as a conduit, yes. I don't understand how that changes our argument at all? Everyone knows that Wanda's power was what allowed Morgan to control the Asgardian magic of the sword, that was a big plot point. This however doesn't mean it amped the swords power in anyway as Wanda's role was very much clarified and she was what allowed Morgan to channel's the swords massive power. Someone who is not foreign to Asgardian magic such as Thor for example does not need such a conduit.
I was going to reference other stories but you haven't read them yet so we'll save that for later.
^^ What I see is a particular amount of power is needed to wield this thing
with Cosmic scale affects.
No different than a person's "will" making the difference in how far a CCU can go,
or the UN in the right hands (like a Cosmic) can do far more damage,
same goes with Starbrand (grant it on much lower scale)
even Eternity may have possibly boosted his power with the IG to challenge TLT.
I'm jumping around but basically, I think in Twilight's case, like many others,
its scale of influence on Reality depends on the amount of power wielding it.
The Sword alone imo, in meager hands can't do these things. (Not in this arc at-least)
Originally posted by Mr Master
So, let's say 616 characters enjoy a story where they jump into alternate worlds or the many different types of twisted universes,
we shouldn't use it cause although it was the FF, in a mainstream FF book,
they ventured into an alternate reality where the story took place
so the events therein are null/void?Imo, it's the same difference if 616/prime characters show up in alternate world books.
Like GOTG, where 616 Strange and 616 Quasar amongst many others
have involved themselves in.Heck, while Dr Strange was leaving Alternate Universe 691 (GOTG storyline) to go home (616)
as he passed Time (universeS)
he actually witnessed ripples across Time, from Warlock's/Magus' battle over the incomplete IG,
which was affecting Time across universeS
cause it helped both Strange and GOTG get back to their individual Universes.I remember that moment when Warlock struggled with Magus back in Infinity War:
Incomplete IG wrecking shop across UniverseS. (this doesn't really relate but it's juicy to know)
Ok, but the thing is, those are 616 characters, Excalibur on the other hand, im not so sure.
Remember that, Excalibur was portrayed to be the same thing as the sword in the star in trilogy.
At the beginning of Universe X #5 we see this:
http://i.imgur.com/aj6ie0T.jpg
Wayfinder creating the microverse, and its association with the Enigma Force. Which is how the Sword in the Star was shown in Micronauts v1 #35
http://i.imgur.com/DD5RStp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uQ5Eq82.jpg
Or a more recent example, from X-23 v2 #15:
http://i.imgur.com/XLqduvi.jpg
-------
While the prime Excalibur is the one forged in the fires of creation (which is nice) as stated in Excalibur v2 #3:
http://i.imgur.com/ETr3xDW.jpg?1
Though it should be noted that (as im sure you know, i just want the readers of this thread to be aware of this) Mastermind was impersonating Roma in this instance.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou have to realize that most of those scans let us know Morgan is using her own magic power.
So that's being added to Twilight.But I wanted to address something you seemed to forget, although you also conveniently snipped it out of the scan.
The Norn Stones were integral in this feat:
Here's my half of her face where she cements this fact:
"I stole the Mystic [b]Norn Stones
and with their Power
And that of the Twilight Sword, I remade blah, blah, blah."------------------------------------------------------------------
616 Brian, doesn't have these kinds of abilities, he's a brute,
yet he instantly remade a Universe with Excalibur,
and with one stroke killed Jude (a cosmic entity representing 3 major Concepts: Death/Oblivion/Entropy)Unlike, Twilight, which is riding Morgan Fey's magics,
some stipulation involving Wanda's reality altering abilities,
Plus the freakin Asgardian Norn Stones amping the sword.Huge difference imo. [/B]
Yes Morgan is using her magic and Wanda's to be able to tap into the power of the sword, nothing more. I already proved this along with bio confirmations.
Morgan states in the same speech that all the process depends on the twilight sword and the power of the Scarlet Witch which allows her to wield it, here's her stating it for the 2nd time (again, no mention of the norn stones):
http://i.imgur.com/dircQqK.jpg?1
So according to this statement Morgan with the power of the SW (to be able to tap into the power of TS) can reshape the cosmos any moment she desires (no mention of the norn stones whatsoever)
Sure, in your scan it's stated that the Norn Stones had a role to play in it, but in other instances (like mine) it's completely ignored. Seems to me, the Norn stones didn't have any major part to play, and as thor mentions in the 1st issue, Twilight Sword is capable of remaking creation when wielded by a sufficient user.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was made explicitly clear that the sword possessed the power level to destroy and re-create creation:And as we see in Avengers Prime, it's more then capable of reality warping on it's own.
👆 forgot about that scan, it confirms that the Twilight Sword can warp reality on its own (with a sufficient user, that is)
Though regarding the world tree: it doesn't link to the megaverse but the metaverse (which is different). Megaverse includes realities outside the multiverse itself (so it's impossible for it to be linked to literally every reality outside Marvel multiverse).
Here's one example from a New Mutants issue (2 years after the thor issue which references the metaverse) where the metaverse is threatened:
http://i.imgur.com/jUFbnoL.jpg?1
And the threat didn't affect any realities beyond the multiverse, so we know they're different.
Originally posted by operator616Yes Morgan is using her magic and Wanda's to be able to tap into the power of the sword, nothing more. I already proved this along with bio confirmations.
Morgan states in the same speech that all the process depends on the twilight sword and the power of the Scarlet Witch which allows her to wield it, here's her stating it for the 2nd time (again, no mention of the norn stones):
So according to this statement Morgan with the power of the SW (to be able to tap into the power of TS) can reshape the cosmos any moment she desires (no mention of the norn stones whatsoever)
Sure, in your scan it's stated that the Norn Stones had a role to play in it, but in other instances (like mine) it's completely ignored. Seems to me, the Norn stones didn't have any major part to play, and as thor mentions in the 1st issue,Twilight Sword is capable of remaking creation when wielded by a sufficient user.
If you focus on your last comment I bolded, it leads us to agree.
Originally posted by operator616
Twilight Sword can warp reality on its own(with a sufficient user, that is)
Originally posted by operator616
Though regarding the world tree: it doesn't link to the megaverse but the metaverse (which is different). Megaverse includes realities outside the multiverse itself (so it's impossible for it to be linked to literally every reality outside Marvel multiverse).Here's one example from a New Mutants issue (2 years after the thor issue which references the metaverse) where the metaverse is threatened:
http://i.imgur.com/jUFbnoL.jpg?1
And the threat didn't affect any realities beyond the multiverse, so we know they're different.
^^ The Ebony blade isn't in the same breadth as Twilight or especially Excalibur.
Originally posted by operator616Ok, but the thing is, those are 616 characters, Excalibur on the other hand, im not so sure.
Remember that, Excalibur was portrayed to be the same thing as the sword in the star in trilogy.
At the beginning of Universe X #5 we see this:
Originally posted by operator616
👆 forgot about that scan, it confirms that the Twilight Sword can warp reality on its own (with a sufficient user, that is)Though regarding the world tree: it doesn't link to the megaverse but the metaverse (which is different). Megaverse includes realities outside the multiverse itself (so it's impossible for it to be linked to literally every reality outside Marvel multiverse).
Here's one example from a New Mutants issue (2 years after the thor issue which references the metaverse) where the metaverse is threatened:
http://i.imgur.com/jUFbnoL.jpg?1
And the threat didn't affect any realities beyond the multiverse, so we know they're different.
My bad, I think I used that word interchangeably. It was called a quantum Metaverse specifically.
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ What I see is a particular amount of power is needed to wield this thing
with Cosmic scale affects.No different than a person's "will" making the difference in how far a CCU can go,
or the UN in the right hands (like a Cosmic) can do far more damage,
same goes with Starbrand (grant it on much lower scale)
even Eternity may have possibly boosted his power with the IG to challenge TLT.I'm jumping around but basically, I think in Twilight's case, like many others,
its scale of influence on Reality depends on the amount of power wielding it.The Sword alone imo, in meager hands can't do these things. (Not in this arc at-least)
I understand what you're saying but I think in the Twilight Sword's case, you simply have to be able to tap into the Asgardian magic. In the Avenger's arc, the only caveat given, was that Morgan needed to bridge the gap between the two foreign magics. Besides that, no other specific requirements regarding the Twilight Sword's reality warping was given. Morgan was specifically concerned about only two things: The twilight sword because it gave her the ability to warp reality and the Scarlet Witch who allowed her to control the sword through her reality warping.
Anyways, I think this particular discussion has run it's course.
