Originally posted by Supra
well if DM loses to Thor he loses to Thanus as well../thread
Yep, for sure.
Gotta understand:
Manhattan is awesomely powerful.
But he's a tricky character, because we can't measure him against anyone else. In his universe, he's alone. And he doesn't have to deal with threat like both mainstream DC and Marvel heroes has to deal with, and there's no Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, Lex Luthor or Bruce Wayne to go full science on his ass. There's Ozymandias, but the top brains in both Marvel and DC are leagues above him.
We can only judge him with that we know.
For instance: He seems to see both in the past and in the future, but can't interfere. He can't change events.
Silver Surfer, on pannel, has stated to do it too, but we also saw him travel in both past and in the future. Something that Manhattan can't do.
Both Manhattan and Surfer can manipulate matter, but Surfer can also take on the soul of a man or a creature.
Surfer can duplicate himself too, he can go intangible, invisible, but he also can go on the astral plane.
So, if Manhattan and Silver Surfer are similar, Surfer seems to be even more versatile that Manhattan. And if Thanos can beat the shit out of Surfer, Manhattan doesn't stand a chance here too.
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
and there's no Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, Lex Luthor or Bruce Wayne to go full science on his ass. There's Ozymandias, but the top brains in both Marvel and DC are leagues above him.
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
For instance: He seems to see both in the past and in the future, but can't interfere. He can't change events.
Silver Surfer, on pannel, has stated to do it too, but we also saw him travel in both past and in the future. Something that Manhattan can't do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_line
Thus there never occurs a need for him to change anything in the past. He already made the choice he perceives as the best during the "first run".
This is vastly different from Silver Surfer's occasional peak into the past by using Power Cosmic.
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Both Manhattan and Surfer can manipulate matter, but Surfer can also take on the soul of a man or a creature.
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Surfer can duplicate himself too, he can go intangible, invisible, but he also can go on the astral plane.
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
So, if Manhattan and Silver Surfer are similar, Surfer seems to be even more versatile that Manhattan.
Originally posted by BouboumasterBut there are several things very different about them and your logic.
Yep, for sure.Gotta understand:
Manhattan is awesomely powerful.
But he's a tricky character, because we can't measure him against anyone else. In his universe, he's alone. And he doesn't have to deal with threat like both mainstream DC and Marvel heroes has to deal with, and there's no Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, Lex Luthor or Bruce Wayne to go full science on his ass. There's Ozymandias, but the top brains in both Marvel and DC are leagues above him.We can only judge him with that we know.
For instance: He seems to see both in the past and in the future, but can't interfere. He can't change events.
Silver Surfer, on pannel, has stated to do it too, but we also saw him travel in both past and in the future. Something that Manhattan can't do.Both Manhattan and Surfer can manipulate matter, but Surfer can also take on the soul of a man or a creature.
Surfer can duplicate himself too, he can go intangible, invisible, but he also can go on the astral plane.
So, if Manhattan and Silver Surfer are similar, Surfer seems to be even more versatile that Manhattan. And if Thanos can beat the shit out of Surfer, Manhattan doesn't stand a chance here too.
2. Surfer can do some of those things but the problem is he dont. Its his character that allows him to lose. If surfer used his light speed, intangibility, etc. then he cant lose to Thanos either. Plus Surfer isnt always looking into the future.
Originally posted by h1a8
I yet to see proof that he can amp his speed to light speed. I yet to see proof that he can amp his speed at all.
Originally posted by h1a8
Just because someone doesn't have feats doesn't mean they can't do something. Otherwise LT would be physically weak as shit. At worst we just say that we don't know. When feats arent available we must dig deeper or leave the debate as inconclusive.
Even if Zeus has shown that he can react to and catch a hurled Mjolnir, and react to Monica Rambeau, not to mention his AoE attacks? Whether it is in character or not is meaningless, as CIS is off in this thread.
Regardless, this is not the thread.
In this thread, Manhattan's ability to see the future as his past is meaningless - as for him, the future IS the past. He doesn't turn it into some kind of battle computer like Midnighter, or use it to predict his opponents moves in battle. For example, Kennedy's assassination, or the Vietnamese woman with the Comedian.
Whilst you say Dr M. cannot be knocked out, I argue he can. We know he can be interacted, physically (hand holding, arm grabbing, being slapped etc). We know he can still feel pain, or at least, sensations, emotionally and physically.
We know he isn't omnipotent (he could only stop 99% of Soviet missiles, Adrian said that he couldn't be everywhere at once) and he isn't omniscient (he had no idea who Moloch was).
All in all, take his hyperbolic statements about being a god with a pinch of salt. Had any other herald been in the Watchmen universe, they would be up there too.
Originally posted by h1a8
Just because someone hasn't done something doesn't ALWAYS mean they can't. But it can mean they cant, especially if they shown the opposite (in Zeus case). Zeus never amped his speed in battle. So either he cant or its not his character to do so.
As opposed to all the things that Dr M has never done?
Originally posted by Silent Master
As opposed to all the things that Dr M has never done?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Reacting to a hurled Mjolnir isn't a good speed feat, not even close. He didn't react to Monica. She was going around him in a circle and he did an AOE attack.
Even if Zeus has shown that he can react to and catch a hurled Mjolnir, and react to Monica Rambeau, not to mention his AoE attacks? Whether it is in character or not is meaningless, as CIS is off in this thread.Regardless, this is not the thread.
In this thread, Manhattan's ability to see the future as his past is meaningless - as for him, the future IS the past. He doesn't turn it into some kind of battle computer like Midnighter, or use it to predict his opponents moves in battle. For example, Kennedy's assassination, or the Vietnamese woman with the Comedian.
Whilst you say Dr M. cannot be knocked out, I argue he can. We know he can be interacted, physically (hand holding, arm grabbing, being slapped etc). We know he can still feel pain, or at least, sensations, emotionally and physically.
We know he isn't omnipotent (he could only stop 99% of Soviet missiles, Adrian said that he couldn't be everywhere at once) and he isn't omniscient (he had no idea who Moloch was).
All in all, take his hyperbolic statements about being a god with a pinch of salt. Had any other herald been in the Watchmen universe, they would be up there too.
DM always is looking into the future. By how much is unknown. But we do it is more than a few seconds.
If someone can reform from being annihilated and never was shown to be koed then they can't be koed. Surfer has shown to be koed multiple times. Thus he can.
DM can go intangible on the spot, as well as duplicate himself. These also prevents him from being koed (if you don't accept the reforming argument).
I never claimed he was omnipotent. It's irrelevant one way or the other.
No herald would be able to reform from being atomized, see into the future at all times, become intangible to avoid being hit, duplicating themselves, growing to size of buildings or beyond. Even witnesses things that happen in planck time (yes DM has a feat on that level).
Originally posted by Silent Master
None of which would allow him to beat Thanos.
I didn't say DM will beat Thanos. I said Thanos can't beat him with physical force. I even made mention to it being possible for Thanos to beat him by mindrape. My argument is mostly about beating DM with physical force.
But DM could possibly beat Thanos by using some sort of matter manip teleportation trick. Like teleport his head off or something. But I won't argue that since this is my opinion only.
Originally posted by h1a8
Reacting to a hurled Mjolnir isn't a good speed feat, not even close. He didn't react to Monica. She was going around him in a circle and he did an AOE attack.DM always is looking into the future. By how much is unknown. But we do it is more than a few seconds.
If someone can reform from being annihilated and never was shown to be koed then they can't be koed. Surfer has shown to be koed multiple times. Thus he can.
DM can go intangible on the spot, as well as duplicate himself. These also prevents him from being koed (if you don't accept the reforming argument).
BUT HE DOES NOT USE IT IN BATTLE. Even more so, even if he sees or knows something is about to happen, he does not act on it. Because as far as he is concerned, it has already happened/is happening. If Thanos punches him in the face, your argument is that he knows it is coming, and will move out of the way. This is NOT how his powers work.
From Manhattan's point of view, he has already been punched in the face. So he knows it will happen, and he will let it happen. He never once changed the outcome of anything.
I never claimed he was omnipotent. It's irrelevant one way or the other.
No herald would be able to reform from being atomized, see into the future at all times, become intangible to avoid being hit, duplicating themselves, growing to size of buildings or beyond. Even witnesses things that happen in planck time (yes DM has a feat on that level).
Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't say DM will beat Thanos. I said Thanos can't beat him with physical force. I even made mention to it being possible for Thanos to beat him by mindrape. My argument is mostly about beating DM with physical force.
But DM could possibly beat Thanos by using some sort of matter manip teleportation trick. Like teleport his head off or something. But I won't argue that since this is my opinion only.
Except
1) Thanos can teleport,
2) As an Eternal Thanos is able to control his molecules
3) Dr M has zero feats of matter manipulating someone of Thanos' durability
Originally posted by Silent Master
Except
1) Thanos can teleport,
2) As an Eternal Thanos is able to control his molecules
3) Dr M has zero feats of matter manipulating someone of Thanos' durability
1. Thanos doesn't teleport anymore. He used tech to achieve this in the past as it is unpleasant for him to do without. I'm not sure he still has such tech. If he does then I don't know why he doesn't teleport anymore. So let's just say he won't use that power, even if he has it.
2. I disagree that Thanos can control his molecules to the extent you think he can. He can be killed, koed, teleported, etc.
3. That's why I'm not going to argue it. But at least it's my opinion that DM can teleport Thanos head off if he couldn't matter manipulate him. But again that's my opinion.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85He sees into the future. This much has never been in doubt.
BUT HE DOES NOT USE IT IN BATTLE. Even more so, even if he sees or knows something is about to happen, he does not act on it. Because as far as he is concerned, it has already happened/is happening. If Thanos punches him in the face, your argument is that he knows it is coming, and will move out of the way. This is NOT how his powers work.
From Manhattan's point of view, he has already been punched in the face. So he knows it will happen, and he will let it happen. He never once changed the outcome of anything.
Was in response to someone else. May have been a different thread, about Thor/Dr. M, actually.
Captain Atom. [/B]
Remember Ozy's weapon prevented DM from seeing into the future. Where do you get these outlandish theories from? DM isn't going to allow himself to get beaten. The reason why Ozy used the weapon in the first place was to prevent DM from stopping him.