^ No problem.
Btw, i realized that i forgot to address an important point:
Yahweh being the creator of the Earth doesn't actually contradict his sky-father status. Because we know that Odin along with his brothers have been shown to create midgard/earth as well; that one was even depicted on panel (and confirmed several times), further supported by the handbooks and indexes (i have the relevant scans if needed).
^ Ah see, Odin being the creator of the earth is only isolated in Thor-related comics (because it's entirely based on the Norse Mythology), just like Yahweh is considered supreme/Creator in the GR-related titles (he actually is supreme there) based on Judeo-Christian myths. And it's not only Yahweh and Odin, i could bring up many more "creators", that have actually created the universe (in some cases, the multiverse) on-panel.
Same thing with DC, i could bring multiple creation stories, by different characters.
TOAA is the one who's generally regarded as being the one true creator, in Marvel.
Originally posted by KidStranglehold
THANK YOU SO MUCH GOOD SIR!!! You don't know how much you have helped me and even indirectly helped me. I am in a debate in Comicvine right now. The thread is Scarlet Witch(house of M) vs Ghost Rider and this particular person thinks Ghost Rider can beat her when I have stated many times that House of M Wanda is above his level. He thinks just because Ghost Riders power source is "God" that the Ghost Rider is unbeatable. I keep telling him that "God" is actually Yahweh and that he is no more powerful than any other skyfathers like Odin.You just indirectly ended a life time of Ghost Rider fan wanking on comicvine.
I know you can't wait to get back at em now and end the foolishness. 😎
^ Yeah he could try, but his statement would be entirely based on the depictions Yahweh has in the GR comics.
And if we're going to do that, then let's take Elder Gods' most impressive portrayals (As they appear in Conan)........Conan the Barbarian #129 states that the elder gods help shape the universe on the forge of creation :
http://i.imgur.com/tCbZ7O0.jpg?1
We know that "a power" is a reference to the elder gods because they're the ones who forged the sword and the other cornerstones. While they don't appear in this particular story, it's actually heavily hinted that they're the ones who created the universe itself.
Though just so that everybody doesn't get the wrong idea: Elder gods are nowehere near that level on average, they're only portrayed like that in the Conan stories (much like Yahweh in Ghost Rider)
I'm sure operator already posted this, but Yahweh predates the universe... He predates the concept of Death itself, in fact:
http://imgur.com/I9W4clt
He didn't just start existing when Christians finally embraced him as the creator.
^ Yeah, im trying to figure that one out. But come to think of it....it doesn't actually contradict anything. Because every pantheon's creation story/portrayal is shown according to their respective mythologies. Just like Thor comics have portrayed Ginungagap (void before/beyond creation), just like in the myth.
I know you're aware of this, just posting those for the onlookers so they can understand how things work:
2 examples of Ginungagap being referenced:
Thor #493:
http://i.imgur.com/vNYI4Cx.jpg?1
Thor v2 #84:
http://i.imgur.com/8GyUkmH.jpg?1
Now, one may argue that this creation story is limited to the Asgardian dimension, but the fact that the creation story includes 616 midgard/earth (planet)........that right there, is a massive contradiction.
So, the conclusion is: Yahweh existing before creation is in-line with what is shown in myth, just like other pantheons have their own creation stories/portrayal based on myth without taking into account the established Marvel cosmology.
Originally posted by KidStranglehold
I actually thought elder Gods were that powerful. Guess I was wrong. But yeah he thinks Yahweh is older than Elder Gods, when actually...Elder Gods in Marvel predate Christianity as a whole. And then theres like I said Oshtur being the creator of Angels which refutes Yahweh being the supreme being even more.
Atum/Demogorge (a skyfather-level character) slaughtered innumerable elder gods. Even in their dimensions (each elder god has a dimension where its power increases), they have been beaten by no-more than skyfather level characters.
Ghost Rider is actually revealed to be an angel, and those spirits of vengeance were created by Yahweh. That was the big revelation that happened in that series. Ghost Rider v6 #18:
http://i.imgur.com/6Xfd7UW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xPaGsBK.jpg
"you are an angel"
That's how Zadkiel managed to crumble the gates of heaven later on in the series (by using God's own power......which were those of the spirits, hence why GR is "the wrath of God"😉
Although, him empowering/creating the angels doesn't actually prove that he's supreme at all.
Regarding Oshtur, it's more complicated than that. Basically, there are different factions of "angels"; Oshtur's are dissociated from the ones who serve Yahweh (these are the ones who are shown in the Conan stories, and confirmed in the handbooks). Ill get into the details when i have more time.....not right now.
Originally posted by operator616👆
^ Yeah, im trying to figure that one out. But come to think of it....it doesn't actually contradict anything. Because every pantheon's creation story/portrayal is shown according to their respective mythologies. Just like Thor comics have portrayed Ginungagap (void before/beyond creation), just like in the myth.I know you're aware of this, just posting those for the onlookers so they can understand how things work:
2 examples of Ginungagap being referenced:
Thor #493:
http://i.imgur.com/vNYI4Cx.jpg?1
Thor v2 #84:
http://i.imgur.com/8GyUkmH.jpg?1
Now, one may argue that this creation story is limited to the Asgardian dimension, but the fact that the creation story includes 616 midgard/earth (planet)........that right there, is a massive contradiction.
So, the conclusion is: Yahweh existing before creation is in-line with what is shown in myth, just like other pantheons have their own creation stories/portrayal based on myth without taking into account the established Marvel cosmology.
Any way you look at it, Yahweh existed eons before the human race and Christianity sprang about... Which should be more than sufficient to answer Kid's question.
Originally posted by operator616
-------------more over, back in the 70s, in a son of satan comic (which is very important to know, because that tells us it's associated with Yahweh/God), specifically in Marvel Spotlight v1 #17, we see a matrix upon which all the universe[B]s
are structured, which was created by God:http://i.imgur.com/w3AROml.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DGIV9gI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RPNJExC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Vx2O9vT.jpg. [/B]
As a Hellstorm fan (yes they exist), I'm not so sure i'd be that quick to say that a Son of Satan story automatically makes it Yahweh or Judo/Christian related. Yes Daimon became a priest to rebel against his father, but Satan was always portrayed as a hell lord with many aspects. Each version of the embodiment of evil was merely another face he wore.
I can't remember the exact issue ATM but in a Defenders story between 100 and 120 Satan tried to turn his son to his side, he failed but came close. Daimon would not spill innocent blood in Satan's name. When this happened Satan showed his son his MANY faces ( which IIRC included Mephisto).
Now It was later retconned that all hell lords had their own realm and that it shared barrier (something also about the dead god's weakening it) and that all hells were the in essence what ever the one going to hell believed them to be. But this was much later and the Marvel Spotlight appearances of Daimon were before the Defenders issue in question.
^ Correct, it was in issue #105. And yes, Mephisto was included. (now there's no doubt that they are independent entities, as you know). Although, i already proved that it was Judeo-Christian:
We know they were basing off the series of the Judeo-Christian beliefs:
http://i.imgur.com/hZxxKd4.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/PxZO34S.jpg?1
(they're on different pages, hence why i cropped them and posted 2 links), it outright says that
Those texts are from the Marvel Spotlight (pertaining the Son of Satan) letter pages.
Originally posted by Galan007
We know Yahweh existed before the universe itself was created. If the same cannot be said about the Elder Gods, then we know they are not older than Yahweh. If the same can be said, then there is no way of knowing for sure.
We have seen several times the origins of the Elder Gods.
Thor Annual #10: demiurge came first (after the planets came), and then came the elder gods:
http://i.imgur.com/lbtD6eT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TO4JvzA.jpg
Same thing told in Silver Surfer v3 Annual #2:
http://i.imgur.com/ATFPYcW.jpg
(there are more)
Although, those stories credit Demiurge for bringing forth life, in the Conan stories, it's stated that from the cornerstones, from which all life sprang:
http://i.imgur.com/ORdgEhU.jpg?1
The Cornerstones were created by the elder gods, so naturally, they should predate them.
That ^, plus the fact that they "shaped the universe at the forge of creation" (and they were never even hinted to do anything of the sort in any of the other titles) definitely indicates that their origins might be different in those stories (we never knew), but they were certainly depicted far more powerful than usual, their power was enough to destroy entire universeS.
