Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your tricks are not the truth. You are trying to prove that you can't prove something and then use it to prove something. You cannot do that. You are only fooling yourself.
Trick?
What trick?
I'm not David Copperfield.
I'm not Whoudini.
I just presented you with the truth and apparently you couldn't handle it.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The fact that something cannot be proven is NOT proof of anything. There is no Truth in your statement.
Then...why are you and other atheists always asking believers to prove that God exists, or that the Bible is true, or to prove this or that?
Why the double standard?
It's your choice whether you want to believe what we say or not believe what we say.
We don't have to prove anything, and neither do you, right?
You're confusing all paper evidence as equally valid, JIA. Which doesn't surprise me, given your inability to concede the slightest inch. If a criminal writes on a piece of paper "I didn't do it" and elsewhere we have an affidavit from a security guard who confirms down to the most minute details the crime and the witness, and we have many other affidavits to confirm the first, we would not say they are all equally valid or invalid, nor would we give more weight to the least likely of cases.
Shaky is alive. In the United States, babies born are given a birth certificate as a standard procedure to confirm birth, and it is a form required throughout life to reconfirm identity. There is no reason to doubt the validity of the form that is similarly made every day, multiple times in similar circumstances, for the very simple reason that it documents an event that is verifiable by many individuals, by doctors, nurses and other professionals, and by additional evidence such as hospital bills and paperwork, a suddenly pregnant mother who is not pregnant any more, and - for the ultra suspicious - subsequent DNA testing to confirm the paternity of the child.
Comparatively, the Bible is not written at the same time as Jesus' life and teaching. If he is indeed a real man (and again, this is disputed by scholars who aren't already Christians), he has left no written words behind. Even the words of his Disciples were carried via word of mouth for decades until they were collected and written after their deaths. In the case of the Bible, it is a collection of gospels chosen by humans, which they felt best represented what they felt Christianity should be, and many gospels were left out, even though all have the same level of authenticity; specifically, they are later-authored accounts of stories that have survived through a historical telephone game for decades.
Any historical verification of Jesus' miracles simply don't exist outside of the Bible. Any historical verification of his life is spotty at best; even Josephus fails to bring the guy up in his first work, and only brings him up as a footnote in his latter, probably from hearsay.
Your attempt to equate say, the existence of George Washington (verified by other living beings in his own time, verified by his presidency, by his papers, by his home and family) to the existence of Jesus outside of the Bible (mere footnotes, well after the fact, nothing verifiable within his lifetime) is faulty reasoning.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're confusing all paper evidence as equally valid, JIA. Which doesn't surprise me, given your inability to concede the slightest inch. If a criminal writes on a piece of paper "I didn't do it" and elsewhere we have an affidavit from a security guard who confirms down to the most minute details the crime and the witness, and we have many other affidavits to confirm the first, we would not say they are all equally valid or invalid, nor would we give more weight to the least likely of cases.Shaky is alive. In the United States, babies born are given a birth certificate as a standard procedure to confirm birth, and it is a form required throughout life to reconfirm identity. There is no reason to doubt the validity of the form that is similarly made every day, multiple times in similar circumstances, for the very simple reason that it documents an event that is verifiable by many individuals, by doctors, nurses and other professionals, and by additional evidence such as hospital bills and paperwork, a suddenly pregnant mother who is not pregnant any more, and - for the ultra suspicious - subsequent DNA testing to confirm the paternity of the child.
Comparatively, the Bible is not written at the same time as Jesus' life and teaching. If he is indeed a real man (and again, this is disputed by scholars who aren't already Christians), he has left no written words behind. Even the words of his Disciples were carried via word of mouth for decades until they were collected and written after their deaths. In the case of the Bible, it is a collection of gospels chosen by humans, which they felt best represented what they felt Christianity should be, and many gospels were left out, even though all have the same level of authenticity; specifically, they are later-authored accounts of stories that have survived through a historical telephone game for decades.
Any historical verification of Jesus' miracles simply don't exist outside of the Bible. Any historical verification of his life is spotty at best; even Josephus fails to bring the guy up in his first work, and only brings him up as a footnote in his latter, probably from hearsay.
Your attempt to equate say, the existence of George Washington (verified by other living beings in his own time, verified by his presidency, by his papers, by his home and family) to the existence of Jesus outside of the Bible (mere footnotes, well after the fact, nothing verifiable within his lifetime) is faulty reasoning.
You're wrong.
Jesus is alive and He is still doing miracles.
There are millions of people who have been healed of all kinds of sicknesses, diseases, and terminal illnesses with medical records that prove that a miracle has taken place.
These people are all over the world.
But if I present their testimony to you, you will not believe it.
You will find every reason in the world to disbelieve which is a double standard.
I have my own testimony that Jesus is alive but you will not believe it.
People have seen Jesus and are seeing Jesus all over the world in Person, in visions, in dreams, and even being taken to Heaven and Hell.
But you choose not to believe their testimony.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You're wrong.Jesus is alive and He is still doing miracles.
There are millions of people who have been healed of all kinds of sicknesses, diseases, and terminal illnesses with medical records that prove that a miracle has taken place.
These people are all over the world.
But if I present their testimony to you, you will not believe it.
You will find every reason in the world to disbelieve which is a double standard.
I have my own testimony that Jesus is alive but you will not believe it.
People have seen Jesus and are seeing Jesus all over the world in Person, in visions, in dreams, and even being taken to Heaven and Hell.
But you choose not to believe their testimony.
People have seen aliens, been probed by them, had their babies, and left on their flying saucers.
I don't believe in them either.
You made the assertion; you bear the burden of proof. If you don't like it, don't make assertions. It's a really simple concept.
This reminds me of the story of the bell ringer. Every morning before the sun comes up, he would ring the bell. He believe that if he ever missed a day, then the sun would never come up. Years pass with never a missed day. Then one day the bell ringer dies. The next morning no one rings the bell, but the sun came up anyway. All the people in the town were amazed. It turns out that the bell ringer was still ringing the bell to make sun come up after death. This proof of an afterlife, and the fact that the sun needs a bell for it rise in the morning. Good thing that bell ringer was such a holy man.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
No, the burden of proof is not on anyone in this discussion.
Yes, yes it is.
This is not a Christian forum. We are not believers. When you attempt to convert us (as you did with this shallow, ridiculous Titanic analogy), we have a right to challenge you for proof. If you cannot provide this proof, you are being extremely rude in persisting. We're obviously not interested. So move on.
I don't have to prove anything.
You made the assertion, not us. See the above images, which capture some of your logic perfectly; if you claim to have a baseball in your hand, but refuse to show it, no one in their right mind would believe in you. No one.
Nowhere in the Bible does God command His children to prove anything to unbelievers.
Then stop talking about it. You can't convince us, we're not interested. Good day.
You either believe or you don't.
I don't.
But you can never say that you were never informed.[/COLOR]
I was always informed. I was raised by a strongly Methodist family, and believed in Jesus and sin and all that hogwash well into my early 20's. Then I asked myself some important questions and challenged the viewpoints of those like yourself. Now I don't believe in whatever my community/church/family tells me.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, yes it is.This is [b]not a Christian forum
. We are not believers. When you attempt to convert us (as you did with this shallow, ridiculous Titanic analogy), we have a right to challenge you for proof. If you cannot provide this proof, you are being extremely rude in persisting. We're obviously not interested. So move on.You made the assertion, not us. See the above images, which capture some of your logic perfectly; if you claim to have a baseball in your hand, but refuse to show it, no one in their right mind would believe in you. No one.
Then stop talking about it. You can't convince us, we're not interested. Good day.
I don't.
I was always informed. I was raised by a strongly Methodist family, and believed in Jesus and sin and all that hogwash well into my early 20's. Then I asked myself some important questions and challenged the viewpoints of those like yourself. Now I don't believe in whatever my community/church/family tells me. [/B]
There was a medical doctor who was of your very same persuasion until he got sick.
This man was a staunch atheist.
Immoveable.
Solid as the rock called Gibraltar.
This man was highly educated, erudite, and scholarly.
This man had one Christian friend who kept talking to him about Jesus.
But--just like many on this forum--the man refused to believe.
Then, he died.
This committed atheist found himself (i.e. his real self, his spirit man) descending into the darkest plane of existence his mind had ever known.
This man fought with all of his might all night long to keep from slipping into that tangible darkness forever, as he waited for his Christian friend.
By the grace of God this man's spirit came back into his body.
This man testifies that at that point there was only one pressing thought on his mind.
One desperate desire: to get saved.
This man managed to get ahold of the only person in the universe that could tell him how to get saved.
The man thought to himself, "what is saved?, how do I get saved."
You can find this man's testimony on YouTube.
This man's name is Dr. Donald Whitaker.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have a friend who believes in UFOs. He has some incredible stories he has seen on youtube about people being abducted by aliens. Should I believe everything that people say is true?
You believe your birth certificate which you cannot authenticate is genuine.
So why not believe Dr. Donald Whitaker's life-after-death testimony on YouTube?
He's more educated than you so give him the benefit of the doubt.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have a friend who believes in UFOs. He has some incredible stories he has seen on youtube about people being abducted by aliens. Should I believe everything that people say is true?
My Godmother, one of the smartest and most educated people I personally know, says she saw a UFO as an 8-year-old child.
The "flying saucer, warm glow, anti-gravity feeling", type of UFO.
It is tough for me to call her a liar and dismiss her claim because everything else she likes to talk about is perfectly rational and generally comes from the academic realm.
Originally posted by dadudemon
My Godmother, one of the smartest and most educated people I personally know, says she saw a UFO as an 8-year-old child.The "flying saucer, warm glow, anti-gravity feeling", type of UFO.
It is tough for me to call her a liar and dismiss her claim because everything else she likes to talk about is perfectly rational and generally comes from the academic realm.
If UFOs do not exist, then that does not make her a liar. It is possible to believe something that is not true.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You ignored this post:
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You believe your birth certificate which you cannot authenticate is genuine.So why not believe Dr. Donald Whitaker's life-after-death testimony on YouTube?
He's more educated than you so give him the benefit of the doubt.