Originally posted by siriuswriter
Well, there's the Jewish Adam and Eve story, I guess if you could call it that - that the first woman born was actually Lilith and that Adam didn't want her because she wanted, you know, not to be subservient, and so she was cast out of the Garden and then Eve was made.Judaism predates Christianity. By a lot.
This.
Problems.
1) Christianity is BASED on Judaism. Part of the Jewish Bible is CONTAINED in the King James version of the Bible. With the exception that some names are rendered in Hebrew, as opposed to English, there are no major differences between the 2 Adam and Ever stories that I can see.
My reference to the Jewish Bible is as follows:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166
2) From what I've read of Lilith, she is part of what is called Midrash, writings ADDED to the Tanakh (i.e. the Jewish "Bible"😉 after the Tanakh itself was written, to explain certain things.
As such, Lilith cannot be considered among the oldest tellings.
For the oldest writings did not include her.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problems.1) Christianity is BASED on Judaism. Part of the Jewish Bible is CONTAINED in the King James version of the Bible. With the exception that some names are rendered in Hebrew, as opposed to English, there are no major differences between the 2 Adam and Ever stories that I can see.
My reference to the Jewish Bible is as follows:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166
2) From what I've read of Lilith, she is part of what is called Midrash, writings ADDED to the Tanakh (i.e. the Jewish "Bible"😉 after the Tanakh itself was written, to explain certain things.
As such, Lilith cannot be considered among the oldest tellings.
For the oldest writings did not include her.
It doesn't really matter because it is not a literal story. Adam and Eve never really existed. They represent all of us.
"Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?"
It's a weird thread, that one...Jesus 😆
For me...........It's Faith, plain and simple. I aint no Bible basher - I don't care what people believe, just don't be a fanatic. I see Christians, Muslims, Jewish and very occasionally....Buddhist.
Be Merry.... 😉 😆
Now, you have to say Happy Holidays, instead of Merry Christmas...hahahahahaha
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There are two many logic errors in the story for it to be true. If it was true, then the human race would have died out.
Are you basing this on the premise of "not enough genetic variation"?
"Cain would have had nowhere to get a wife" or some similar theory?
Or are there even things, SEPARATE from procreation, that make you believe the story is untenable regardless?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Are you basing this on the premise of "not enough genetic variation"?"Cain would have had nowhere to get a wife" or some similar theory?
Or are there even things, SEPARATE from procreation, that make you believe the story is untenable regardless?
First off, the story is filled with personifications. That tells me that the story is not real. Just like we know the story of Bambe is not real. Dear do not talk. Just like snakes do not talk.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Are you basing this on the premise of "not enough genetic variation"?"Cain would have had nowhere to get a wife" or some similar theory?
Or are there even things, SEPARATE from procreation, that make you believe the story is untenable regardless?
Oh don't forget the giants of the earth/children of angels, etc. procreated with Adam and Eve's children, no doubt making most of us divine.
Or something. Whatever. The idea that the story could ever be taken literally is unbelievable.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Oh don't forget the giants of the earth/children of angels, etc. procreated with Adam and Eve's children, no doubt making most of us divine.Or something. Whatever.
You're referring to what some call "The Nephilim".
I've heard a lot about this in the past few months.
It's taken from Genesis 6:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6&version=AKJV
Genesis 6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
" ... 6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord ...
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Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea that the story [of Adam and Eve] could ever be taken literally is unbelievable.
There are a lot of unbelievable things that are true, though.
For instance, would you believe me if I told you that there were spiders that breathe air, yet spend the majority of their adult lives underwater?
What if I told you of a creature the size of a city bus that could take a single breath of air, dive down a mile or two, stay down underwater a full HOUR with no difficulty, and return to the surface none the worse for wear, splashing you playfully?
How about an animal whose nose grows so big and strong and long that he could use it to wrap around a full grown man and pick him up in the air and crush the man lifeless?
Yet you know by now that all these things exist, and you can probably list for me exactly what we call them in English, too.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
... the story [of Adam and Eve] is filled with personifications.That tells me that the story is not real.
Just like we know the story of Bambi is not real.Deer do not talk.
Just like snakes do not talk.
Shake?
(Do you mind that as the short form of your username? 😕 I won't use it if you do ...)
Ancient books often describe the way things WERE.
They DON'T necessarily describe things the way they are NOW.
There is a supposition among people that, whatever we see today, this must have been the way of the world yesterday. That's not always so.
And it is certainly not true that books of yesteryear MUST be telling us of something fantastical just because we don't see it today.
I can think of one sad counterexample right off the top of my head.
The Yangtze River Dolphin.
When I was little, my dad gave me a Zoobook (National Geographic Magazine for kids) that featured whales. It said that, although there were several dozen species that lived in the seas of the world, there were only 1 or 2 that lived in freshwater. I LOVED the look of the thing that book showed me.
I wondered if I might not see one someday in real life.
Sadly, that likely will never be the case.
The Yangtze River Dolphin, 14 of which were alive earlier in my life, apparently went extinct, a little more than 6 years ago:
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1651819,00.html
In other words, it doesn't exist now.
But does that mean it never did?
Was my book lying when it told me that, in the year of that Zoobook's publication,
there were indeed dolphins swimming in China's most famous freshwater river?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[The Sons of God/Nephilim/etcetera are mentioned] in the beginning of Genesis. Shocking how many people don't seem to know anything about them.
😕
I honestly cannot tell if you are joking or not.
There was a time in America, probably in the lifetime of your father or grandfather,
where such actually WOULD have been surprisingly common knowledge to many,
especially if your folks lived in one of the Southern states.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison... the story [of Adam and Eve] is filled with personifications.
That tells me that the story is not real.
Just like we know the story of Bambi is not real.Deer do not talk.
Just like snakes do not talk.
My dog doesn't talk.
My cat doesn't talk.
The chimps at the zoo, though they apparently share 95% of the DNA talking people have, they do not talk, either.
(I'VE never heard them speak, anyway ...)
What would you say, though, if I told you I owned an animal that could fly AND say my name and six other phrases, in nearly perfect English, if I asked it to?
In fact, on its own, might demand a Saltine?
Certainly there are people in the world
who can claim to own animals able to do that much and more ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ht0a2-OnA
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Shake, I will not say in this post "A snake talked to Adam and Eve."
That'd be worse than saying a bird could talk.
What I will say, however, is that:
a) the Bible has a surprisingly good track record
b) yesteryear was NOT always like today, and you and I can both point to multiple examples of that statement being true
c) a lot of things that appear miraculous to us, like, say, manna in the desert, actually DO exist, though most people are completely unaware of it, not having done any research, or even ever considering such a thing
d) animals have gone extinct that might have amazed us as much as many of the ones with us today
e) there might have been an animal or class of animal as unrelated to us as parakeets, mynas, and parrots are today that could simulate spoken human language with similar effectiveness
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I'll stop short of suggesting overmuch that snakes appear as feathered in more than a few ancient sources.
Or that there are actual gliding snakes, though featherless, gliding through our modern day jungles.
After all, combined with the following video clip, such a thing might stun even jaded forum readers out of their cynicism for the wonder that exists in the world now.
They might even stop to think for half a quarter second that, with the number of species we have forced to go extinct over the centuries, there might have been natural marvels equally unexpected, though long gone now ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtlpfTwzziY
As I know people have absolutely abysmal copy and paste skills here,
I'll present the clips I gave above as easy-to-click links here:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
90 seconds with ... "Einstein" , (2006 clip)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ht0a2-OnA
(1 min 27 sec)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Snake of Paradise, NATURE, Moments of Impact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtlpfTwzziY
(3 min 54 sec)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕I honestly cannot tell if you are joking or not.
There was a time in America, probably in the lifetime of your father or grandfather,
where such actually WOULD have been surprisingly common knowledge to many,
especially if your folks lived in one of the Southern states.
I live in the South now, and have many southern religious relatives. Some of them did not know anything more than their preacher cherry picked for them every Sunday, and a lot of Christians are the same way.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are a lot of unbelievable things that are true, though.For instance, would you believe me if I told you that there were spiders that breathe air, yet spend the majority of their adult lives underwater?
What if I told you of a creature the size of a city bus that could take a single breath of air, dive down a mile or two, stay down underwater a full HOUR with no difficulty, and return to the surface none the worse for wear, splashing you playfully?
How about an animal whose [b]nose
grows so big and strong and long that he could use it to wrap around a full grown man and pick him up in the air and crush the man lifeless?Yet you know by now that all these things exist, and you can probably list for me exactly what we call them in English, too. [/B]
Yes, some things are hard to believe, but the story of Creation requires a complete "and then magic made it all happen" mindset to be taken seriously. You would tease an adult mercilessly for believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth-fairy, or the Easter Bunny, but if they believe in Magic Six-Day Creation Yahweh, they must be taken seriously.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Shake?
(Do you mind that as the short form of your username? 😕 I won't use it if you do ...)
Most people call me Shaky.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ancient books often describe the way things WERE.
They DON'T necessarily describe things the way they are NOW.
Are you suggesting that things were different in the past? Sounds like evolution. However, animals did not talk to humans in the past.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There is a supposition among people that, whatever we see today, this must have been the way of the world yesterday. That's not always so.
Yes, I believe in evolution. But I have a feeling that you are not talking about evolution, but about magic. I don't believe in magic.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And it is certainly not true that books of yesteryear MUST be telling us of something fantastical just because we don't see it today.
I have news for you, books today, just like in the past, tell fantastical stories. They are called fiction.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I can think of one sad counterexample right off the top of my head.
The Yangtze River Dolphin.When I was little, my dad gave me a Zoobook (National Geographic Magazine for kids) that featured whales. It said that, although there were several dozen species that lived in the seas of the world, there were only 1 or 2 that lived in freshwater. I LOVED the look of the thing that book showed me.
I wondered if I might not see one someday in real life.
Sadly, that likely will never be the case.
The Yangtze River Dolphin, 14 of which were alive earlier in my life, apparently went extinct, a little more than 6 years ago:In other words, it doesn't exist now.
But does that mean it never did?
Did River Dolphins talk to people?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Was my book [b]lying when it told me that, in the year of that Zoobook's publication,
there were indeed dolphins swimming in China's most famous freshwater river? [/B]
No. However, I don't see how that is relevant. Now if the Yangtze River Dolphins could talk to humans, that would be a different matter.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
My dog doesn't talk. .My cat doesn't talk.
The chimps at the zoo, though they apparently share 95% of the DNA talking people have, they do not talk, either.
(I'VE never heard them speak, anyway ...)
Dogs and cats are domesticated. Unless Eve had domesticated the snake, we are talking about a wild snake.
Talking is very human.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What would you say, though, if I told you I owned an animal that could fly AND say my name and six other phrases, in nearly perfect English, if I asked it to?In fact, on its own, might demand a Saltine?
Certainly there are people in the world
who can claim to own animals able to do that much and more ...
Domestication is the difference.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Shake, I will not say in this post "A snake talked to Adam and Eve."
That'd be worse than saying a bird could talk.What I will say, however, is that:
a) the Bible has a surprisingly good track record
b) yesteryear was NOT always like today, and you and I can both point to multiple examples of that statement being true
c) a lot of things that appear miraculous to us, like, say, manna in the desert, actually DO exist, though most people are completely unaware of it, not having done any research, or even ever considering such a thing
d) animals have gone extinct that might have amazed us as much as many of the ones with us today
e) there might have been an animal or class of animal as unrelated to us as parakeets, mynas, and parrots are today that could simulate spoken human language with similar effectiveness
a) The bible is not a history book. The bible is a collection of many fiction and nonfiction books of the past.
b) Tomorrow is also NOT always like today. However, in many ways things never change, like human nature.
c) Ignorance is not evidence for magic.
d) That is true. 65 million years ago dinosaurs all died out, and they would be amazing today.
e) There could of also have been dancing unicorns in that past, but I doubt it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'll stop short of suggesting overmuch that snakes appear as feathered in more than a few ancient sources.
Or that there are actual gliding snakes, though featherless, gliding through our modern day jungles.After all, combined with the following video clip, such a thing might stun even jaded forum readers out of their cynicism for the wonder that exists in the world now.
They might even stop to think for half a quarter second that, with the number of species we have forced to go extinct over the centuries, there might have been natural marvels equally unexpected, though long gone now ...
We now know that dinosaurs were covered with feathers. So, a snake with feathers is not absurd. It is a genetic through back just like humans with a tale.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseYes, some things are hard to believe, but the story of Creation requires a complete "and then magic made it all happen" mindset to be taken seriously.
1) "God". Not "magic".
2) What kind of mindset is required to take the Big Bang theory seriously?
Originally posted by Stealth MooseYou would tease an adult mercilessly for believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth-fairy, or the Easter Bunny, but if they believe in Magic Six-Day Creation Yahweh, they must be taken seriously.
Speaking honestly, no I would not tease an adult for believing in any of those things.
One, I would not believe THEY really believed in those 3 things.
I would think they were teasing.
Two, if they DID convince me they actually believed in those things, I would be concerned at that point if those were the ONLY ... unorthodox ... thoughts they held, but were otherwise stable and conventionally nonagressive ...
No, definitely don't think I would be teasing at the point I realized they were serious about one or all of THOSE 3 things ...