Superman vs Namor/Hercules

Originally posted by abhilegend
Really? Just because I give Namor his due via his showing against legit top tier means I'm off my rocker? There's condescension and then there's condescension. Give me a high meta that has 12 stalemates, 2 wins and 0 losses against hulk in a slugfest for several pages under all sort of writers, 4 stalemates with hercules, 5 stalemates with Thor, has overpowered silver surfer, beaten abomination and shit like that. I pitted namor in this fight because superman rarely starts with hv against a foe and Herc/Namor combo can be problematic in a slugfest for him.

Oh relax. Read my post in response to you. I tried to be as accepting of your position as I could be. No condescension intended; I just don't feel the same about Namor overall, at least in relation to Superman. The response to carver wasn't intended as an indictment, I just wanted him to clarify himself on what he agreed/disagreed with.

Originally posted by Digi
Oh relax. Read my post in response to you. I tried to be as accepting of your position as I could be. No condescension intended; I just don't feel the same about Namor overall, at least in relation to Superman. The response to carver wasn't intended as an indictment, I just wanted him to clarify himself on what he agreed/disagreed with.

Carver and Abhi are agreeing.

This is beautiful.

Iron Man has done better and he's the most wellknown high meta. By definition they hang with Heralds for a bit.

When did Namor own Blaastar?

Originally posted by Bentley
Iron Man has done better and he's the most wellknown high meta. By definition they hang with Heralds for a bit.

When did Namor own Blaastar?

In fairness, I think the board did recently upgrade Tony's newer armors to low herald. I think he's deserving, not just for his raw power but on versatility as well.

Namor's tricky because he has the good showings that his supporters are mentioning, but many, many others as well that place him at high meta. I'd have a hard time placing him too much higher because he's not terribly versatile. Low herald has, well, heralds. Full-on city-busting (or more), flying-through-the-cosmos heralds. I have a hard time changing what amounts to a brawler to that status just because he's learned to go a few rounds with Hulk (and as before, the same could be said of Thing, an oft-mentioned comparison).

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's OK. I have a high opinion of namor, that's all.

👆

For what it's worth, my estimation of him has grown recently. Just not a ton.

Ok, I don't entirely agree with Iron-Man being bumped to begin with... But he's certainly a decent performer, so he can always be a bottom of the barrel herald.

Maybe I'm just sour that people won't bump Kang up 🙁

Supes takes this as long as he stays away.
What wins this for him is his flight mobility, and long range attacks.

Again thats if he stays out of reach. If he should slug it out Doomsday/Grundy/Mongol style Hercules alone takes him out.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Supes takes this as long as he stays away.
What wins this for him is his flight mobility, and long range attacks.

Again thats if he stays out of reach. If he should slug it out Doomsday/Grundy/Mongol style Hercules alone takes him out.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How? How many top tiers has Herc taken out in h2h that are as strong and durable as superman? In a slugfest Kal would punch herc's teeth out. I'm just hearing this praise of hercules like Superman doesn't go toe toe toe with people like Orion and bitchslap wonder woman, both of whom are better fighters than Herc.

Because vs Immortal Herc both Supermans hand to hand skills and his strength become nominal. Dealing with Black suit Namor simply puts this in their favor.

As mentioned Superman needs to put his flight, freeze and hv to effect to even the odds here.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Because vs Immortal Herc both Supermans hand to hand skills and his strength become nominal. Dealing with Black suit Namor simply puts this in their favor.

As mentioned Superman needs to put his flight, freeze and hv to effect to even the odds here.

👆

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Because vs Immortal Herc both Supermans hand to hand skills and his strength become nominal. Dealing with Black suit Namor simply puts this in their favor.

As mentioned Superman needs to put his flight, freeze and hv to effect to even the odds here.

Namor can be easily taken out by HV though. You said herc can take superman alone, I am asking how?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wut? Superman is easily stronger and more durable than hercules even at his immortal level who is only on par with Thor and I've never seen Herc's fabled skill gaining him any advantage against top tiers. Heck, he has never beaten even Iron man in a slugfest who knocked him out with electricity once.

Namor can be easily taken out by HV though. You said herc can take superman alone, I am asking how?

Again, in a standing toe to toe slugfest - Immortal Herc has superior standing fighting skills and can take any strike Superman can throw. Superman loses due to ignoring other skillsets he is accustomed to putting to use as part of his fighting style.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Again, in a standing toe to toe slugfest - Immortal Herc has superior standing fighting skills and can take any strike Superman can throw. Superman loses due to ignoring other skillsets he is accustomed to putting to use as part of his fighting style.

Avengers vol 1 #40 (fight 1)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/Avengers040a.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/avengers040b-1.jpg

Hercules has a brief scuffle with Namor that ends when Namor is thrown into the sea, an opportunity he uses to recharge his strength.

Who looks stronger?

Hercules, without much doubt.

Factors to consider?

Namor is on land and again notes that his strength is dwindling and he needs to recharge in the water to match Herc.

Avengers vol 1 #40 (fight 2)

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/avengers040c-1.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/avengers040d-1.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/avengers040e-1.jpg

The two fight on land, then in water, then on land but with Namor altered by the Cosmic Cube so that he does not dehydrate.

Who looks stronger?

Herc is shown as stronger on land, Namor admits as much. Namor is shown as stronger in the water, Hercules admits as much. When they fight on land but with Namor at full strength the two are apparently dead even.

Factors to consider

This writer apparently believed fighting underwater would weaken Hercules.

Namor is in possession of the Cosmic Cube here, but is explicitly not using it to amp his physicals (until he makes it so he does not dehydrate on land) as he wants to test himself against Hercules.

Sub-Mariner vol 1 #29

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Sub-Mariner29a.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Sub-Mariner29b.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Sub-Mariner29c.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Sub-Mariner29c.jpg

A mind-controlled Namor fights Hercules on land until Namor shakes the mental control.

Who looks stronger?

Hercules by a bit. He catches Namor's punch. He also claims he is the stronger, and Namor seems to tacitly conceed the point.

Factors to consider

Namor is mind-controlled and fighting on land. The mind-control seems to be more of a blood-lust effect than anything though so not much of an issue.

Avengers vol 1 #262

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/Avengers262a.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/Avengers262b.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/Avengers262c.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/Avengers262d.jpg

Hercules fights Namor on a beach.

Who looks stronger?

They look very much dead even before the fight is interrupted.

Factors to consider

None really. On a beach is pretty perfect conditions to get a fair fight; Namor is hydrated, but Hercules isn't underwater.

Namor The Sub-Mariner #58

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Namor%20titles/Battles/NamorTheSub-Mariner58a.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Namor%20titles/Battles/NamorTheSub-Mariner58b.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Namor%20titles/Battles/NamorTheSub-Mariner58c.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Namor%20titles/Battles/NamorTheSub-Mariner58d.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Namor%20titles/Battles/NamorTheSub-Mariner58e.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Namor%20titles/Battles/NamorTheSub-Mariner58f.jpg

Namor vs the Avengers (including Hercules) underwater. Namor initially takes a beating as the Avengers gang up on him, but when it becomes a one-on-one with Hercules he gets the better of it.

Who looks stronger?

Namor. He claims the two are evenly matched on land, but underwater he is stronger than Herc. Hercules seems to concede the point with his dialogue.

Factors to consider

The earlier Avengers fight suggested that Hercules was weaker than normal underwater. However, no mention of that is made here, and Herc was specially prepped for underwater combat so it seems unlikely the author intended it to be a factor.

Incredible Hercules #122

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/IncredibleHercules122a.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/IncredibleHercules122b.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/IncredibleHercules122c.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/IncredibleHercules122d.jpg

Brief scuffle between Namor and Hercules.

Who looks stronger?

Neither. Namor seems to think he is stronger than Herc underwater, but the fight is interrupted before we find out if he is right or not.

Factors to consider

None.

Why would such a brute who has never beaten even Namor in a slugfest takes majority over superman? Is superman weaker than even Namor now?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Despite never showing any advantage over any top tier in such a fight? Gotta love this imaginary version of characters. Superman punches through hercules since he has actually done that to top tiers. Hercules? Never done so, Thor, Wonder Man, Namor, savage hulk, mindless hulk, Iron man are just some examples. People like Sersi have easily taken him out with just punches and blasts. I'm asking you again, how does Herc shows superiority to superman despite never showing that to Thor or Namor? These are some of his fights with Namor himself who is unquestionably weaker and less skilled than superman, right?

Why would such a brute who has never beaten even Namor in a slugfest takes majority over superman? Is superman weaker than even Namor now?

Nice lowballing scans.

Speaking of which....my point is that his standing hand to hand skills are not a match for Immortal Herc.

perhaps this will illustrate:

Here Clarks gets practically oneshotted without his super powers and it certainly isn't the first time. If he had actually hand to hand skills anywhere near Hercules, this would never occur even without powers.

Here...its stated on panel that Superman is not faster in combat that Wonderwoman who like Hercules draws her fighting ability and strength from being an offspring of Zeus.

There is no question that Superman does not possess the level of skill akin to Immortal version of Hercules in hand to hand....nor does he have the size/strength to overpower him in a fist fight without assistance of other powers.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Nice lowballing scans.

Speaking of which....my point is that his standing hand to hand skills are not a match for Immortal Herc.

perhaps this will illustrate:

Here Clarks gets practically oneshotted without his super powers and it certainly isn't the first time. If he had actually hand to hand skills anywhere near Hercules, this would never occur even without powers.

You are posting pre-crisis out of context scans where Jimmy olsen is impersonating superboy and talking about lowballing? Congrats, you just received the award of being the biggest hypocrite today.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Here...its stated on panel that Superman is not faster in combat that Wonderwoman who like Hercules draws her fighting ability and strength from being an offspring of Zeus.

There is no question that Superman does not possess the level of skill akin to Immortal version of Hercules in hand to hand....nor does he have the size/strength to overpower him in a fist fight without assistance of other powers.

This is just pure gold. Do you even know ANYTHING about these characters or just randomly googled "find superman lowball scans"? Because at this point you are just trolling.

Tell me digi, was everyone as "intelligent" as this horrorolf back in the day? How did you survive?

On topic, I guess a scan of PC Jimmy Olsen getting punched means all these are invalid.

A depowered and amnesiac Superman pulls off some moves that wouldn’t be too shabby for Captain America to down some parademons. Adventures Of #426
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/adventuresof426a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/adventuresof426b.jpg

Wonder if he has ever tried his hand at darts? Action Comics #657
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics657a.jpg

Another decent showing for Superman’s throwing accuracy. Superman v2 #112
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman112d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman112e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman112f.jpg

Shows decent combat skill whilst fighting Mongul Jnr, combining all of his offensive powers into one potent combo. Superman v2 #152
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman152b.jpg

Shows off some of his martial arts training. Man Of Steel #96
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ManOfSteel096.jpg

There’s no specific skill showing here, but I’ve included it to highlight the fact that Superman does actually have nearly a thousand years’ worth of fighting experience. Action Comics #761
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics761a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics761b.jpg

Uses some martial arts technique to target Mongul’s damaged ribs. Superman v2 #153
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman153a.jpg

Taps a pressure point to instantly KO Tempest. Superman v2 #163
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman163a.jpg

Shows off some nice hand-to-hand skill against Starfire. Superman/Batman #4
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman04a.jpg

Demonstrates how his experience and skill with his powers can give him the edge against a similarly powered but inexperienced foe, Preus. Action Comics #824
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/ActionComics824c.jpg

Shows off some of the combat skills taught to him by Batman and Wonder Woman to gain the upper hand vs Zod. Superman v2 #215
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/superman215a.jpg

Induces temporary paralysis with a pressure point strike. Superman/Batman #23
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman23a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman23b.jpg

A powerless Superman gets a solid month hard training from the Batman in how to fight and operate as a street-level hero. Superman/Batman Annual #2
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatmanannual02c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatmanannual02d.jpg

Swarmed by powerless humans, Superman first vibrates the air around him to push them off, then catches all of them with a cushion of air. Superman/Shazam: First Thunder #3
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/firstthunder03a.jpg

Not necessarily combat skill, but one heckuva showing of his aiming abilities. Superman picks out a bullseye on the moon (or would have done if someone hadn’t gotten in the way!) with a home run he hit back on Earth (see the Striking feats section for more). Superman #673
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman673f.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman673g.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/aim/superman673h.jpg

Superman uses his experience and skill to briefly gain the upper hand against Paragon, who has all of Superman's powers at higher levels. Superman #674
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/superman674a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/superman674b.jpg

Superman was taught hand-to-hand combat by Earth’s greatest proponent, and he’s a great study! World Of New Krypton #3
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/WorldOfNewKrypton03a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/WorldOfNewKrypton03b.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalm

You are posting pre-crisis out of context scans where Jimmy olsen is impersonating superboy and talking about lowballing? Congrats, you just received the award of being the biggest hypocrite today.
crylaugh

This is just pure gold. Do you even know ANYTHING about these characters or just randomly googled "find superman lowball scans"? Because at this point you are just trolling.

😆 Hypocrite much?

Congrats genius...that's exactly my point. That was a reflection of exactly what you did with your lowballing of both Namor and Hercules.

There are tons of lowball and high feats of virtually any character due to writers and era. We are talking Immortal Herc and you post obvious lowballs - so yeah we could do this all day, but I don't even need to. And only your teeth are gold here.

It's a plain fact that Superman does not match the hand to hand of Wonderwoman (another Zeus prodigy) - and he would lose to Hercules in a slugfest every time.

Abhi, you forgot this famous scan. You are terrible at this.

Sure, he is using superspeed. But he's not just 'Usain Bolt', he knows to target kidneys and pressure points.

And hey, he does well here:

Terrible, Abhi bhai.