Originally posted by Digi
Look at some of the answers though, or ask around. I know what a Skyfather is. But in terms of usage on KMC, it doesn't refer to your definition any more than "herald" refers to only the heralds of Galactus.
Case in point:
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
i think superman 1 million is low skyfather. his feats are above even trans.
JuggerMan here doesn't speak for everyone, of course, but he's far from the only one to have said stuff like this.
Originally posted by Digi
Look at some of the answers though, or ask around. I know what a Skyfather is. But in terms of usage on KMC, it doesn't refer to your definition any more than "herald" refers to only the heralds of Galactus.
Easy. A "skyfather tier" being is anyone that's
a) more powerful than a Trans Tier being
b) less powerful than a high end cosmic (ie Galactus)
Originally posted by Digi
maybe the Doctor (WS)
Id put the Doctor above Trans, personally. At least at full potential.
Like when the renegade Doctor received his powers, he was said to be able to recreate the universe from the Big Bang till the end of time. Then in the 2nd volume of The Authority, Jeroen managed to create a universe (a big bang) out of a suicide bomber (who was meant to take out no more than a city block). Also demonstrated casual control over time, even against Fractal (same arc where she was merging the whole multiverse), who was stated in the same story to have control over time as well. Remember that Jeroen is stoned most of the time, which is why we don't see him performing these kind of feats often (well, there would be no threats to the Authority if he operated on that level all the time, the writers can't have that).
Not to mention that Habib managed to hold his own against a mind-controlled Jenny Quantum for 2 issues, even when she started using her "imagination". Jenny has several universal feats; her sister (whom she's equal to beyond a doubt, in terms of power level) has a multiversal feat. Granted, some writers tend to forget that Quantum has reality-warping capabilities (Authority: the Lost Year and DC/WS: dreamwar, come to mind), but in Authority prime, she was definitely portrayed as a powerful reality-warper.
I also recall an issue of Planetary saying that Dreamtime is the starting point of the entire multiverse. Kind of tells us how significant the Doctor's supposed to be.
Originally posted by zopzop
Oh so you mean strictly power wise?Easy. A "skyfather tier" being is anyone that's
a) more powerful than a Trans Tier being
b) less powerful than a high end cosmic (ie Galactus)
Lol, you're proving my point. Like I said, ask around. Go solicit 10 other definitions, and have fun reconciling probably at least 5-6 incongruent ideas of what it should be.
Also, technically even your definition is problematic. Originally, Trans. was created to go up to Odin, but not including him. As it was originally conceived, and as it still exists today, several lesser Skyfather pantheon heads should be in Trans. They remain absent only because of the lexical complications. Some lesser Skyfathers would undoubtedly lose to high end Trans. characters, so even if the original idea of Trans. is voided, direct comparisons damn it anew.
Also, "high end cosmic" is another ill-defined term. Several quasi-abstract beings could be anything from Trans. to your Galactus tier, depending on interpretation.
To be fair, it's as good a definition as any. But since there's no colloquial understanding of the tier (which, again, doesn't exist on KMC except as individual constructions/ideas), it doesn't help much.
Thus, my original point. Pending further explication on a publicly-understood level, citing literally anything as Skyfather tier is, at best, unfalsifiable and therefore meaningless.
Originally posted by operator616
Id put the Doctor above Trans, personally. At least at full potential.Like when the renegade Doctor received his powers, he was said to be able to recreate the universe from the Big Bang till the end of time. Then in the 2nd volume of The Authority, Jeroen managed to create a universe (a big bang) out of a suicide bomber (who was meant to take out no more than a city block). Also demonstrated casual control over time, even against Fractal (same arc where she was merging the whole multiverse), who was stated in the same story to have control over time as well. Remember that Jeroen is stoned most of the time, which is why we don't see him performing these kind of feats often (well, there would be no threats to the Authority if he operated on that level all the time, the writers can't have that).
Not to mention that Habib managed to hold his own against a mind-controlled Jenny Quantum for 2 issues, even when she started using her "imagination". Jenny has several universal feats; her sister (whom she's equal to beyond a doubt, in terms of power level) has a multiversal feat. Granted, some writers tend to forget that Quantum has reality-warping capabilities (Authority: the Lost Year and DC/WS: dreamwar, come to mind), but in Authority prime, she was definitely portrayed as a powerful reality-warper.
I also recall an issue of Planetary saying that Dreamtime is the starting point of the entire multiverse. Kind of tells us how significant the Doctor's supposed to be.
We have evidence to suggest Doctor > Jenny, though very slightly, from that encounter. His powers aren't reality manip. though. They're high-level matter and time manip. Subtle but important distinction.
The suicide bomber thing is wildly overstated. Dimensional BFR that exploited some physical laws to make a Big bang...not even among his top feats, and bordering on a non-feat imo.
I might actually agree with your overall point, though. Which is why I listed him at the top.
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
holding back a charging galaxy at light speed that is able to destroy the universe is more powerful.
Originally posted by carver9
Making an abstract use almost all of his power just to contain you is more impressive.
Originally posted by carver9
Making an abstract use almost all of his power just to contain you is more impressive.
no you are just twisting the feats as usual. what feat are you exactly refering to? i would like to see a scan to that feat and then i will even address it. aside of that its well knwon that abstracts and celestials sometimes job to even heralds like thor being able to hurt them atc atc , WBH is on a planetary level he can destroy a planet thats cool. but its nothing compared to someone who can destroy a giant star while depowered, and hold back a charging galaxy at light speed with his force vision.
Originally posted by DigiWe have evidence to suggest Doctor > Jenny, though very slightly, from that encounter. His powers aren't reality manip. though. They're high-level matter and time manip. Subtle but important distinction.
That encounter doesn't prove that Doctor > Jenny (although, it's a great feat for Habib, considering that Jenny is a universal/multiversal being). She was mind controlled, after all, and was trying to hold back a bit (she did start using her imagination, though), while Habib even said that he was going to have to go "all out" to stop her, from what i recall.
There are other evidence which suggests that The Doctor > Jenny. Like in The Authority: Lost Year #9, Jenny says that simple spell from the (alt.) Doctor could have ended the entire conflict (which involved the mainstream authority including Jenny, along with an alternate authority and other villains), while she couldn't:
http://i.imgur.com/hqppn2q.jpg?1
But like i said, Authority: Lost Year is one of those times where a writer forgets that Jenny has reality warping capabilities. Jenny has actually better feats than the Doctor.
Well for one, i never specifically said that the Doctor is "a reality warper", although he actually is. Matter and time manipulation is technically reality manipulation. The Doctor also has been stated right from his very first appearance that he could "re-mix reality". His battle with Jenny was kind of a reality warping battle too.
Originally posted by Digi
The suicide bomber thing is wildly overstated. Dimensional BFR that exploited some physical laws to make a Big bang...not even among his top feats, and bordering on a non-feat imo.
Im not sure i follow you, here. What's "overstated" about it? Because that's exactly what was stated. The Doctor says: "I just created a new universe":
http://i.imgur.com/zy3hU4c.jpg
And now that i re-checked the scene (The Authority v2 #2), i saw nothing about "exploiting a physical law to make a big bang". So im not sure what you're talking about here. You'll have to clarify.
Originally posted by JuggernautMania
no you are just twisting the feats as usual. what feat are you exactly refering to? i would like to see a scan to that feat and then i will even address it. aside of that its well knwon that abstracts and celestials sometimes job to even heralds like thor being able to hurt them atc atc , WBH is on a planetary level he can destroy a planet thats cool. but its nothing compared to someone who can destroy a giant star while depowered, and hold back a charging galaxy at light speed with his force vision.
Lol...that was more than a planetary showing.
Here is the scene and lol at you saying anything about context.
Originally posted by carver9
In-betweener.
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Inept
Gwen Stacey
Aunt MayStreet
Alfred Pennyworth
KingpinLow Meta
Captain America
SpidermanHigh Meta
Storm
GiantmanLow Herald
Nova
NamorMid Herald
SuperSkrull
Wonder Woman
High Herald
Gladiator
Blue MarvelTrans
Ultron
GA SMPSkyfather
Serpent
Shuma GorathAbstracts
Galactus
Kirby / Toaa / Presence
Originally posted by operator616
That encounter doesn't prove that Doctor > Jenny (although, it's a great feat for Habib, considering that Jenny is a universal/multiversal being). She was mind controlled, after all, and was trying to hold back a bit (she did start using her imagination, though), while Habib even said that he was going to have to go "all out" to stop her, from what i recall.There are other evidence which suggests that The Doctor > Jenny. Like in The Authority: Lost Year #9, Jenny says that simple spell from the (alt.) Doctor could have ended the entire conflict (which involved the mainstream authority including Jenny, along with an alternate authority and other villains), while she couldn't:
http://i.imgur.com/hqppn2q.jpg?1
But like i said, Authority: Lost Year is one of those times where a writer forgets that Jenny has reality warping capabilities. Jenny has actually better feats than the Doctor.
Well for one, i never specifically said that the Doctor is "a reality warper", although he actually is. Matter and time manipulation is technically reality manipulation. The Doctor also has been stated right from his very first appearance that he could "re-mix reality". His battle with Jenny was kind of a reality warping battle too.
Playing with semantics here a bit. But in comic terms, a reality warper is generally someone who thinks something and the laws of reality conform to make it happen. Whereas time and matter manip. are working with existing physical laws. The Doctor can shape reality to him whim, but he can't rewrite reality, which is what reality manip. commonly refers to. Forming a sandwich from stray atoms as opposed to having one pop into existence, violating laws of the universe and logic. Reality manip. is abstract in its truest sense, because it's the concept itself that makes it happen. The Doctor doesn't need to know the atomic structure or physical laws all the time (like Firestorm, for example), he can just think it. But the process of it, how it actually happens once he thinks it, is the same. Make sense?
I realize the lines get blurred sometimes by lazy writers, but there are numerous references and feats that lead me to make this distinction.
I agree with pretty much everything else here, though.
Originally posted by operator616
Im not sure i follow you, here. What's "overstated" about it? Because that's exactly what was stated. The Doctor says: "I just created a new universe":http://i.imgur.com/zy3hU4c.jpg
And now that i re-checked the scene (The Authority v2 #2), i saw nothing about "exploiting a physical law to make a big bang". So im not sure what you're talking about here. You'll have to clarify.
Overstated in that anyone who can dimensional BFR could replicate that feat, which includes numerous characters at well below Trans tier. As the feat is routinely used (i.e. "He made a BIG BANG!"😉, it implies he possesses vastly higher amounts of raw power than he actually does. It's not an impressive feat.
It depends on how you look at Mid Herald. These people are ranked as mid Heralds on KMC but I consider them High Heralds.
Captain Marvel
Black Adam
Blue Marvel
King Hyperion
Magneto
Beta Ray Bill
Martian Manhunter
Stardust
Firelord
Bizzaro
Zod
Gladiator
Exodus
I consider a lot of these people above her, personally (even though she would give every Herald a fight and pull a lot of wins), so if this is true and these people are Mid Herald, she shouldn't be on anyone's list as the top mid Herald.
Originally posted by carver9magneto.........above beta and manunter?
It depends on how you look at Mid Herald. These people are ranked as mid Heralds on KMC but I consider them High Heralds.Captain Marvel
Black Adam
Blue Marvel
King Hyperion
Magneto
Beta Ray Bill
Martian Manhunter
Stardust
Firelord
Bizzaro
Zod
Gladiator
ExodusI consider a lot of these people above her, personally (even though she would give every Herald a fight and pull a lot of wins), so if this is true and these people are Mid Herald, she shouldn't be on anyone's list as the top mid Herald.
Originally posted by Digi
Lol, you're proving my point. Like I said, ask around. Go solicit 10 other definitions, and have fun reconciling probably at least 5-6 incongruent ideas of what it should be.
