Originally posted by zopzop
This is comics my friend, not science. So nothing is going to be 100% exact. I was just giving you a general definition of how most people view the skyfather tier (ie > Trans but < High End Cosmic).
And like I said, it's not a terrible definition. But it's also not the definition, and many different ideas of it exist, along with some misconceptions about Trans. It makes most communication possible, but it makes the OPs question impossible to answer, because the lines are never 100% clear, but in this case they're nowhere near clear enough to answer reliably.
Originally posted by Digi
Playing with semantics here a bit. But in comic terms, a reality warper is generally someone who thinks something and the laws of reality conform to make it happen.
Sounds familiar. The renegade doctor says (The Authority v1 #20):
http://i.imgur.com/zbyHFzn.jpg?1
"all i have to do is draw a detailed mental picture, and reality builds it for me".
Originally posted by Digi
Whereas time and matter manip. are working with existing physical laws. The Doctor can shape reality to him whim, but he can't rewrite reality, which is what reality manip. commonly refers to. Forming a sandwich from stray atoms as opposed to having one pop into existence, violating laws of the universe and logic. Reality manip. is abstract in its truest sense, because it's the concept itself that makes it happen. The Doctor doesn't need to know the atomic structure or physical laws all the time (like Firestorm, for example), he can just think it. But the process of it, how it actually happens once he thinks it, is the same. Make sense?
Sounds familiar, as well:
http://i.imgur.com/VHO7iLU.jpg?1
"De-create the universe from the big bang to the end of time"
That said, like i mentioned before, it's the same thing. by "changing things" the Doctor can alter reality (which is what reality-warping translates to). He's also a magician keep that in mind. Because several comics say that magic is reality warping (of course, on various scales).
Also, the Doctor is capable of popping non-existent things into existence. Like Habib making Rose's tattoos real, in The Authority revolution #12:
http://i.imgur.com/9Ray9jS.jpg
(not to mention that he converted her from the spirit of death to the spirit of life)
That's some form of reality warping, not matter manipulation.
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Also, as i said, The Doctor has been referred to as a reality warper. Apart from the above example (where he was stated to be able to decreate the universe) we have Captain Atom: Armageddon #5, Angie regards the Doctor as having "reality-bending" powers:
http://i.imgur.com/rvEk038.jpg?1
Right from the beginning of the series, The Authority v1 #2, The Doctor is stated to be able to "re-mix reality":
http://i.imgur.com/OKVVGCc.jpg?1
So The Doctor is regarded as a reality warper. No doubt about it.
Originally posted by Digi
Overstated in that anyone who can dimensional BFR could replicate that feat, which includes numerous characters at well below Trans tier. As the feat is routinely used (i.e. "He made a BIG BANG!"😉, it implies he possesses vastly higher amounts of raw power than he actually does. It's not an impressive feat.
Except that it's much more than dimensional bfr. The Doctor was the one who caused the big bang, who else?
We see the big bang coming right from the suicide bomber, and directly after that, the Doctor outright states that he created a universe. So from what i can tell, everything points toward Jeroen creating a universe. And there's nothing even remotely hinting that he exploited some physical law, to achieve that.
It doesn't imply that he possesses vastly higher amounts of raw power than he actually does, because we've heard that he can recreate the universal big bang back in the 1st volume of The Authority (already posted the scan):
http://i.imgur.com/VHO7iLU.jpg?1
The Doctor holding his own against Jenny Quantum (who has extremely impressive feats, i could reference/post them if you want), is also another demonstration of the power-level he possesses.
While it will take me longer than I want to dig up scans, the crux of it is this: many of those scans have people stating things. Statements like the Renegade Doctor's are vague enough to be taken either way. My "compose a sandwich from stray atoms" works under his description, as does full reality warping. And the elder Doctor's statement is not backed up by any actual feat, and he also doesn't explain how the Doctor could do it. Reality manipulation need not be present, though...time and matter manip. would be sufficient, given a modicum of imagination.
But my argument for it not being reality manipulation is based on feats, where it is directly shown, and sometimes both shown and stated, that he's manipulating molecules and atoms, not rearranging physics. I made the full case at one point, but the scans will be a bother to dig up. It's not as simple as popping into the respect thread, because it's often a random scan or quote, not necessarily something that would be included in my primary collection. Give me the weekend; I may find them.
On the latter, the Big Bang energy was the suicide bomber. The Doctor merely put him into nothingness. Size being relative, especially in nothingness, any sizable trigger would likely have caused it.
But in Renegade Doctor's case, we saw that his thoughts were becoming reality. Remember that the main reason he was defeated was because his thought processes were disrupted. He even said that he "couldn't think of something horrible or picture one of his genocide fantasies":
http://i.imgur.com/rMEuqkn.jpg
Basically, he thinks of something, and it becomes reality. That's exactly what reality warping is, i don't think it's even debatable tbh. Jeroen didn't operate on that level consistently, yes. But he never really saw his full potential. He thought that when he gave the renegade Doctor his power, the worst he could do is destroy the Earth, while in fact, it was the whole universe. And he's stoned most of the time anyway (Authority v2 #0, just so that everyone could see for themselves):
http://i.imgur.com/aZxOG0g.jpg?1
It's definitely implied that the Doctor is too powerful of a teammate for the Authority, most of the time there are always plot excuses for him not saving the day on a whim. Quick examples come to mind; like when there were natural disasters i recall someone saying that the Doctor could fix it with a snap of his fingers if he was there (he was stoned there, at the time). Or in the John Clay instance, when he was away with his wife and in the end solved the whole problem by casually eating John despite the latter being empowered by most of humanity. Or Henry Bendix sending Habib and Jenny to the ends of the multiverse cause they could solo the field easily. Or Jackson mind-controlling Jenny to fight the Doctor because again, each is capable of soloing the field. And in the entire volume of Authority v4, the doctor was missing because he supposedly gone mad after Armageddon happened (although he did appear in an issue or two but he was severely altered). etc...i could give more examples but im sure you get the point.
On the suicide bomber part: Your claim is just a theory; nothing of the sort was mentioned, i honestly see all evidence poiting toward the Doctor creating it....but we'll agree to disagree on that one, i suppose.
Originally posted by operator616
But in Renegade Doctor's case, we saw that his thoughts were becoming reality. Remember that the main reason he was defeated was because his thought processes were disrupted. He even said that he "couldn't think of something horrible or picture one of his genocide fantasies":http://i.imgur.com/rMEuqkn.jpg
Basically, he thinks of something, and it becomes reality. That's exactly what reality warping is, i don't think it's even debatable tbh. Jeroen didn't operate on that level consistently, yes. But he never really saw his full potential. He thought that when he gave the renegade Doctor his power, the worst he could do is destroy the Earth, while in fact, it was the whole universe. And he's stoned most of the time anyway (Authority v2 #0, just so that everyone could see for themselves):
http://i.imgur.com/aZxOG0g.jpg?1
It's definitely implied that the Doctor is too powerful of a teammate for the Authority, most of the time there are always plot excuses for him not saving the day on a whim. Quick examples come to mind; like when there were natural disasters i recall someone saying that the Doctor could fix it with a snap of his fingers if he was there (he was stoned there, at the time). Or in the John Clay instance, when he was away with his wife and in the end solved the whole problem by casually eating John despite the latter being empowered by most of humanity. Or Henry Bendix sending Habib and Jenny to the ends of the multiverse cause they could solo the field easily. Or Jackson mind-controlling Jenny to fight the Doctor because again, each is capable of soloing the field. And in the entire volume of Authority v4, the doctor was missing because he supposedly gone mad after Armageddon happened (although he did appear in an issue or two but he was severely altered). etc...i could give more examples but im sure you get the point.
Yes, thoughts trigger his powers. They respond to his thoughts. Doctor 101.
But most matter manipulation responds to thought as well. Is Pre-FP Firestorm a reality warper? The powers work the same, the Doctor's just have greater scope. Saying that disruption of thoughts means it's reality warping is still doing what you were doing earlier: taking something that has two equally likely interpretations and discounting one without reason.
There is at least one example I know offhand - it's one among the 3-4 scans I referred to earlier - where the Doctor and...Jack? Angie? Anyway, they get merged, and the Doctor can't fix it. He states that "it's so far below molecular that it will take him weeks to sort it out." If he was a reality warper, it wouldn't matter what level it existed on, he could think it back to normal. But because the tampering rivals his own powers in terms of subatomic complexity, he needs time. Matter manip, not reality manip. There are at least 2-3 other examples of this, but that's the most obvious and convenient.
The long diatribe on the Doctor being plot device-d out of the way also shows nothing. That would be true regardless of which one of us is right here. It's true that writers often need to eliminate him to make stories work, but that point is entirely tangential to our discussion.
Originally posted by operator616
On the suicide bomber part: Your claim is just a theory; nothing of the sort was mentioned, i honestly see all evidence poiting toward the Doctor creating it....but we'll agree to disagree on that one, i suppose.
This baffles me because it's all right there. Bomber exists, bomber gets dimension ported, bomber explodes, a big bang is created. What other interpretation is there? What do you see that leads you to believe the Doctor adds any additional energy to it?
Also, all our claims are theories. Some are just less ambiguous than others. Saying so is no more valid a criticism than when creationists naively level the same barb at evolution.
Originally posted by Digi
Yes, thoughts trigger his powers. They respond to his thoughts. Doctor 101.But most matter manipulation responds to thought as well. Is Pre-FP Firestorm a reality warper? The powers work the same, the Doctor's just have greater scope. Saying that disruption of thoughts means it's reality warping is still doing what you were doing earlier: taking something that has two equally likely interpretations and discounting one without reason.
But Angie outright saying that he's a reality-bender, doesn't prove that he is, right (or several other statements)?
Or the elder Doctor saying that the RD could "de-create the universe" (which is directly in-line with what your definition of reality warping, is supposed to be), doesn't either. You ask how he would do it.....the only way to de-create the universe from the big bang to the end of time is to have control over time and space, which is warping reality. But then again.....high-level of matter + time manipulation could be seen as reality warping (because basically, no matter how complex the proccess is, one could achieve it with high level matter manipulation). Which is why it doesn't matter to me much.
Habib making Rose's tattoos real....is merely matter manipulation? I don't think so.
Originally posted by Digi
There is at least one example I know offhand - it's one among the 3-4 scans I referred to earlier - where the Doctor and...Jack? Angie? Anyway, they get merged, and the Doctor can't fix it. He states that "it's so far below molecular that it will take him weeks to sort it out." If he was a reality warper, it wouldn't matter what level it existed on, he could think it back to normal. But because the tampering rivals his own powers in terms of subatomic complexity, he needs time. Matter manip, not reality manip. There are at least 2-3 other examples of this, but that's the most obvious and convenient.The long diatribe on the Doctor being plot device-d out of the way also shows nothing. That would be true regardless of which one of us is right here. It's true that writers often need to eliminate him to make stories work, but that point is entirely tangential to our discussion.
That's a solid point you have there. and the same thing goes to time manipulation btw; i recall instances where he had problems with it on a very limited scale too. Doesn't change the fact that the Doctor doesn't realize his potential for the most part. We saw his full potential in the Renegade Doctor story.
Jenny apparently needed a breathing apparatus to get into space (despite the fact that we saw her breathing just fine in earlier issues) and specifically kill a sun eater by frying it's veins or something (there are more examples, but the point is clear).....does that mean that Jenny is not a reality warper?
Shit like that happens in comics, and you know it.
My "long diatribe" is supposed to explain how the Doctor, despite being this powerful, doesn't just solve all of Authority's problems. Pretty sure you know this, but just explaining it for anyone who was wondering.
Originally posted by Digi
What do you see that leads you to believe the Doctor adds any additional energy to it?
...Because he outright said "i just created a universe", maybe?
If the energy didn't come from him then why the hell would he claim that he created a universe?
And a big bang energy doesn't just come out of nowhere, the only possible explanation is that it came from the Doctor.
Originally posted by Digi
YouTube video
Relevant twice in the same thread. Who woulda thunk?! Carver, Juggs, play nice.
Originally posted by operator616
But Angie outright saying that he's a reality-bender, doesn't prove that he is, right (or several other statements)?
And Angie is privy to the inner workings of his powers?
Originally posted by operator616
Or the elder Doctor saying that the RD could "de-create the universe" (which is directly in-line with what your definition of reality warping, is supposed to be), doesn't either. You ask how he would do it.....the only way to de-create the universe from the big bang to the end of time is to have control over time and space, which is warping reality.
You lack imagination. Maybe he just goes back to the creation point and, I dunno, stops the terrorist bomber from exploding. I jest, but only partially. Reality manip. isn't needed for this. There are 100 ways to do it with his power set that don't involve rewriting universal laws.
Originally posted by operator616
But then again.....high-level of matter + time manipulation could be seen as reality warping (because basically, no matter how complex the proccess is, one could achieve it with high level matter manipulation). Which is why it doesn't matter to me much.
This is a great point. The line is absolutely blurry; on that we're agreed. But it still isn't reality manipulation in the same way that, say, toon powers are, which is why I think you're not quite grasping what I mean when I make a distinction.
Originally posted by operator616
That's a solid point you have there. and the same thing goes to time manipulation btw; i recall instances where he had problems with it on a very limited scale too. Doesn't change the fact that the Doctor doesn't realize his potential for the most part. We saw his full potential in the Renegade Doctor story.
Potential doesn't address how his powers work. Whether or not his potential is greater, it's potential with the same power set. And examples like the one I gave, and the time one you mentioned, are arguments in my favor.
Originally posted by operator616
Jenny apparently needed a breathing apparatus to get into space (despite the fact that we saw her breathing just fine in earlier issues) and specifically kill a sun eater by frying it's veins or something (there are more examples, but the point is clear).....does that mean that Jenny is not a reality warper?
Jenny Sparks? She's the one that vein-fried the elder god thing. She's arguably not even herald level, and obviously not a reality warper. Am I missing something here?
Originally posted by operator616
My "long diatribe" is supposed to explain how the Doctor, despite being this powerful, doesn't just solve all of Authority's problems. Pretty sure you know this, but just explaining it for anyone who was wondering.
Ok, cool. I think we're the only two that care about our conversation here though. It's long and complicated enough; no need to delve down other rabbit holes.
Originally posted by operator616
...Because he outright said "i just created a universe", maybe?If the energy didn't come from him then why the hell would he claim that he created a universe?
And a big bang energy doesn't just come out of nowhere, the only possible explanation is that it came from the Doctor.
"I just created a universe" is more poetic than "I just teleported a walking bomb to an unborn dimension that allowed his bomb to trigger a big bang and create a universe." Artistic license. Again, there's no other explanation for this based on what we see on panel.
Do you literally think the Doctor added energy, when we KNOW he ported a bomb there? Where does it say that or show it? Why create something that isn't shown when everything necessary for the feat is already there?
I think maybe the disconnect lies in the idea that a bomb isn't the same level of energy as our Big Bang...is that it? It's nothingness, so size is relative. That random bomb could have been the strength of a million of our Big Bangs, relative to the universe it creates. As such, as ever, it's a dimensional BFR feat and nothing else.
There's some irony here, at least, and it's not lost on me. I've spent the better part of a decade being the one talking up the Authority, and no one more so than the Doctor. Even with other fan crushes - like Spidey - there's enough general knowledge that I've never really been needed to clarify, disambiguate, or rep him.
That the roles are reversed here is an odd pleasure, because it's a reminder that I don't back my favorites on principle alone. And it's honestly interesting to hear a different take on characters that, for years, no one would challenge me on. It's like if an Alpha Flight expert showed up to tell Mungi he's been selling them short all these years.
And for the record, I ate crow on the last Authority disagreement operator and I had, concerning a specific feat by Jenny Q. Which was also fun. I see less compelling evidence this time to change my mind, but I'm not beyond altering my views on the characters.
Originally posted by Digi
Jenny Sparks? She's the one that vein-fried the elder god thing. She's arguably not even herald level, and obviously not a reality warper. Am I missing something here?
No, not Sparks, i was referring to Jenny Quantum the reality warper (although i can understand the confusion; Jenny Sparks did vein-fry "God", but what i was referring to, was another instance regarding Quantum)
From DC/WS: Dreamwar #6:
http://i.imgur.com/IwcIfbb.jpg
(there are other examples, of course; the entirety of The Authority: Lost Year is a perfect example)
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I just wanted to clarify this part. I disagree with some parts of your post, but i think we both said what we wanted to say, and ill leave at that.
Ok, so what you're saying is that there are incongruent examples of her powers. But it doesn't invalidate her as a reality warper. It's a decent point.
What I think we're headed for here is an impasse. Because we know the line is blurry, and we know writers like to throw around the language you've been linking to. But there also exist contradictory examples like the one I mentioned (among a few others). I can't tell you for certain that everything he's ever done doesn't require reality manipulation powers. I do think it's possible that matter and time manip. alone could do everything he's done. And I do think there's a level of conceptual reality manipulation that he very much doesn't possess (see my earlier mention of toon powers for the most obvious example of reality manipulation that would trump his own, but various others in comicdom possess the same level of reality manip. that enters into conceptual, abstract territory).
The Doctor is bound to the Earth as its Shaman and bound by physical laws. All magic is change...that's what he says, right? He's just changing things. Molecular, atomic, subatomic, time, etc. It doesn't matter. He's not violating any of those things as a reality manipulator could, just rearranging them and manipulating them.
But in terms of proof, you're saying my examples aren't enough to prove the point, and I'm saying yours are speculative, based on ambiguous statements instead of feats. I haven't seen either of us budge much, so I'll be happy with the "agree to disagree" cliche.
But not on the universe creation. There, I'm much more convinced you're wrong. Sorry. 😉
I made a thread that touched on this very topic some time ago; I just might bump it...
@zopzop
We see eye to eye as concerns the Skyfather tier; just like you, I think Marvel did an excellent defining precisely what it is...
Ranking characters above and below Skyfather (Trans or Elder God) seems pretty straight foward to us as a result...
@Digi
Yes, there is always going to be some disagreement as to what a given character might tier, but I am betting that more peeps would agree with zopzop and myself as pertains what characters are Skyfather and which are not...
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@DigiYes, there is always going to be some disagreement as to what a given character might tier, but I am betting that more peeps would agree with zopzop and myself as pertains what characters are Skyfather and which are not...
It would definitely be possible to standardize it. It's just, to this point, we haven't done so. There would also need to be some disambiguation with the KMC tiers as they exist. Like I mentioned earlier, nearly any definition that could be agreed upon for Skyfather Tier would overlap somewhat with our current Trans., so it's not a one-step process.
As it is, I think the concept of tiers are hilariously overused on this board. Outside a common language to refer to general power levels (which, granted, does make communication easier), it does far more harm than good. When we used to have regular tourneys, they served a practical function. Now they're just fuel for arbitrary disagreement.
