Vegetarians are less healthy according to science.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088278#abstract0

Our results revealed that a vegetarian diet is related to a lower BMI and less frequent alcohol consumption. Moreover, our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life.

I'm curious about the various carnivorous diets, though! The one with meat, fruits, and vegetables...I bet they are the healthiest group. If someone can figure that out (because I am having a dumb moment...I don't see how to pull that out of that link), that'd be awesome.

I think you can still be a healthy vegetarian. But I think, for the average person, they just don't do it properly. You have to be careful when going on extreme diets. Do your damn research, I say.

I was going to make fun of you for posting this thread in the wrong forum but will leave it alone. 😛

Down with the vegans! Raptors are carnivores! Also, Digi is a Mac using vegan. biscuits

You should have made fun of me: I deserved it.

Man did not climb to the top of the food chain on Earth to solely sup upon its foilage.

I'd suspect that the health issues with vegetarians and vegans is due to them not knowing how to eat proper/balanced due to not doing the research prior to dropping meat, dairy etc, instead of a meatless diet being inherently bad for you.

In Scotland we go by this logic. Chocolate is made from plants so is therefor a vegetable.

Cows eat grass and so are therefor are made from vegetables and so are a vegetable.

Michael Schumacher is a vegetable.

Originally posted by jaden101

Michael Schumacher is a vegetable.

Too soon...

Originally posted by Badabing
I was going to make fun of you for posting this thread in the wrong forum but will leave it alone. 😛

Down with the vegans! Raptors are carnivores! Also, Digi is a Mac using vegan. biscuits

Not sure which is more shocking; Digi being a vegan or using a Mac.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'd suspect that the health issues with vegetarians and vegans is due to them not knowing how to eat proper/balanced due to not doing the research prior to dropping meat, dairy etc, instead of a meatless diet being inherently bad for you.

This is most likely true.

So if I'm reading this correctly, hot dogs are healthy? Yes? Cool.

Originally posted by BackFire
So if I'm reading this correctly, hot dogs are healthy? Yes? Cool.

Only if ingested South Park stye.

Originally posted by Robtard
Only if ingested South Park stye.

Backfire does everything South Park style.

There are some things that stand out to me.

Let's look at some of the results:
Concerning BMI: vegetarians have the lowest mean BMI (M = 22.9), followed by subjects eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (M = 23.4), rich in fruits and vegetables (M = 23.5), and rich in meat (M = 24.9). Heavy meat eaters differ significantly from all other groups in terms of their BMI (p = .000).

Concerning physical exercise: no significant difference was found in the total MET score between the various dietary habit groups (p = .631).

Concerning smoking behavior: the number of cigarettes smoked per day did not differ between the various dietary habit groups (p = .302).

Concerning alcohol consumption: Subjects following a vegetarian diet (M = 2.6 days in the last 28 days) or a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables (M = 3.0 days) consume alcohol significantly less frequently than those eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (M = 4.4 days) or rich in meat (M = 4.8 days; p = .000).

Ok, so 2/4 are no difference. But in alcohol and BMI, vegetarians are slightly better (low BMI is generally better, no? Except when dangerously skinny, of course). As a side note, BMI is largely panned in the medical community as a legitimate way to indicate health. That this study measures it at all is a bit suspect.

But then comes the assertion that vegetarians are less healthy overall. Ok, cool. But there are other possible factors:
Vegetarians and subjects eating a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables consult doctors more often than those eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (p = .003). Moreover, vegetarians are vaccinated less often than all other dietary habit groups (p = .005) and make use of preventive check-ups less frequently than subjects eating a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables (p = .033; Table 2).

This, to me, is huge. Because it adds to the equation with several variables that can make a big difference.

And while their "strengths" and "limitations" summary is very thorough and very fair, the limitations stood out a bit more to me because of a couple very strong statements:
Unfortunately, food intake was not measured in more detail, e.g. caloric intake was not covered. Hence, further studies will be necessary to analyze health and its relationship with different forms of dietary habits in more detail.

and...
We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations.

In fact, I couldn't find anything concrete suggesting a casual link between vegetarianism and poor health. What I did see a lot of was a link between vegetarianism and poor health habits unrelated to diet alone.

Robtard made an excellent point that not all will know how to do vegetarianism in a healthy way. I've known quite a few who think they're saving the planet, but have no idea how to diet, and end up stuffed full of junk food and cheese after a few months. But I'd go one step further and say that there may be a relationship between the type of people who become vegetarians and a lack of proper all-inclusive health coverage (i.e. doctors, vaccinations, etc.). I doubt being vegetarian, in and of itself, is detrimental based on these findings. However, I do believe that being an Earth-goddess hippie, taking herbal supplements and healing one's chakras, instead of going to a licensed physician, is detrimental, vegetarian or not.

And as a side note, on a few occasions I would have been happier had they used median numbers instead of means. Their sample size was large enough to allay some of my concerns, but not entirely. Basically, I think the study was very fair, but dudemon's title is not (sorry, but thanks for posting), because it falls victim to the same sensationalistic tendencies that many media outlets do. Why not "Study tracks eating behavior and various health parameters"? Because on a news site this title will get more clicks, and on a forum it will elicit stronger reaction. Probably not dudemon's intention, but certainly its effect.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Not sure which is more shocking; Digi being a vegan or using a Mac.

I'm neither. Bada forgets that the mudslinging of the of the comic forums might actually be believed in these parts.
313

Originally posted by Bardock42
Too soon...

Well I can't really do it after he's dead because then he'll be worm food and everyone knows worms don't eat vegetables.

Originally posted by Digi
There are some things that stand out to me.

Let's look at some of the results:
Concerning BMI: vegetarians have the lowest mean BMI (M = 22.9), followed by subjects eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (M = 23.4), rich in fruits and vegetables (M = 23.5), and rich in meat (M = 24.9). Heavy meat eaters differ significantly from all other groups in terms of their BMI (p = .000).

Concerning physical exercise: no significant difference was found in the total MET score between the various dietary habit groups (p = .631).

Concerning smoking behavior: the number of cigarettes smoked per day did not differ between the various dietary habit groups (p = .302).

Concerning alcohol consumption: Subjects following a vegetarian diet (M = 2.6 days in the last 28 days) or a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables (M = 3.0 days) consume alcohol significantly less frequently than those eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (M = 4.4 days) or rich in meat (M = 4.8 days; p = .000).

Ok, so 2/4 are no difference. But in alcohol and BMI, vegetarians are slightly better (low BMI is generally better, no? Except when dangerously skinny, of course). As a side note, BMI is largely panned in the medical community as a legitimate way to indicate health. That this study measures it at all is a bit suspect.

But then comes the assertion that vegetarians are less healthy overall. Ok, cool. But there are other possible factors:
Vegetarians and subjects eating a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables consult doctors more often than those eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (p = .003). Moreover, vegetarians are vaccinated less often than all other dietary habit groups (p = .005) and make use of preventive check-ups less frequently than subjects eating a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables (p = .033; Table 2).

This, to me, is huge. Because it adds to the equation with several variables that can make a big difference.

And while their "strengths" and "limitations" summary is very thorough and very fair, the limitations stood out a bit more to me because of a couple very strong statements:
Unfortunately, food intake was not measured in more detail, e.g. caloric intake was not covered. Hence, further studies will be necessary to analyze health and its relationship with different forms of dietary habits in more detail.

and...
We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations.

In fact, I couldn't find anything concrete suggesting a casual link between vegetarianism and poor health. What I did see a lot of was a link between vegetarianism and poor health habits unrelated to diet alone.

Robtard made an excellent point that not all will know how to do vegetarianism in a healthy way. I've known quite a few who think they're saving the planet, but have no idea how to diet, and end up stuffed full of junk food and cheese after a few months. But I'd go one step further and say that there may be a relationship between the type of people who become vegetarians and a lack of proper all-inclusive health coverage (i.e. doctors, vaccinations, etc.). I doubt being vegetarian, in and of itself, is detrimental based on these findings. However, I do believe that being an Earth-goddess hippie, taking herbal supplements and healing one's chakras, instead of going to a licensed physician, is detrimental, vegetarian or not.

I'm neither. Bada forgets that the mudslinging of the of the comic forums might actually be believed in these parts.

I remember that you're not a vegetarian but a pussitarian. Or is it pescetarian? I know it has something to do with eating fish. 313

Thanks for the lengthy and in depth reply. I believe vegetarians, in general, have this idea that they eat healthy so they don't need vaccinations and doctors as often as others. Think people like Steve Jobs. That study looks like it is picking up on that and it is more common among the "vegetarian" population (at least their sample...which they believe to be somewhat representative of the population).

But, I also know of another kind of vegetarian: the ultra-vegetarian. They are the ones that are borderline hypochondriacs (they go to the doctor at the drop of a hat) and watch what they eat like mad men. There are several professional natural bodybuilders like this. They are probably much healthier than any measured.

I think studies like these fail to compare apples to apples. What they should do is measure how someone who rates themselves as "high conscientiousness" in their dieting habits and health habits compares to others in specific diets.

Vegetarians to Carnivores. Vegans to Vegetarians, and so forth.

Obviously, those with poor eating habits (self rated) would be less healthy.

I say this because I wonder if excellent carnivores (people who do well to maintain a healthy lifestyle and diet) really ARE less healthy than their mindful vegetarian counterparts.

Personally I'm more interested about the Mac side of this story...

Originally posted by dadudemon
I remember that you're not a vegetarian but a pussitarian. Or is it pescetarian? I know it has something to do with eating fish. 313

Thanks for the lengthy and in depth reply. I believe vegetarians, in general, have this idea that they eat healthy so they don't need vaccinations and doctors as often as others. Think people like Steve Jobs. That study looks like it is picking up on that and it is more common among the "vegetarian" population (at least their sample...which they believe to be somewhat representative of the population).

But, I also know of another kind of vegetarian: the ultra-vegetarian. They are the ones that are borderline hypochondriacs (they go to the doctor at the drop of a hat) and watch what they eat like mad men. There are several professional natural bodybuilders like this. They are probably much healthier than any measured.

I think studies like these fail to compare apples to apples. What they should do is measure how someone who rates themselves as "high conscientiousness" in their dieting habits and health habits compares to others in specific diets.

Vegetarians to Carnivores. Vegans to Vegetarians, and so forth.

Obviously, those with poor eating habits (self rated) would be less healthy.

I say this because I wonder if excellent carnivores (people who do well to maintain a healthy lifestyle and diet) really ARE less healthy than their mindful vegetarian counterparts.

I agree that there are some ways they could hone in on their intended results a bit more. Your dieting habit spectrum is one possible route.

Labeling myself has become an exercise in futility. If presented with no other options, I'll eat whatever. So I'm a meat-eater probably 3-4 times a year. And yeah, I eat fish, but it's not a terribly regular thing. Mostly I just try to be healthy, which DOES involve being conscious about my diet. And it's nice to think that it may help the environment or be more humanitarian, but that isn't the primary impetus.

The best is messing with people though...
Person: "Why do you eat fish and not other meat?"
Me: "Because fish don't have souls."
P: ?!?!
M: Yeah, the Catholic Church says so, so it's ok to eat them. That's what Lent's all about, you know.
...you'd be shocked how many people think I'm being serious. I've become great at removing the sarcasm from my voice when I say it.

Or last week when my gf and I cooked a sweet potato and kale frittata for dinner. Her mom's text reaction: "That's...interesting! But why did you choose that and not something else, like meatloaf?"

...the joys of living in the Midwest.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Personally I'm more interested about the Mac side of this story...

As in Big Mac?

Originally posted by Digi
I agree that there are some ways they could hone in on their intended results a bit more. Your dieting habit spectrum is one possible route.

Labeling myself has become an exercise in futility. If presented with no other options, I'll eat whatever. So I'm a meat-eater probably 3-4 times a year. And yeah, I eat fish, but it's not a terribly regular thing. Mostly I just try to be healthy, which DOES involve being conscious about my diet. And it's nice to think that it may help the environment or be more humanitarian, but that isn't the primary impetus.

The best is messing with people though...
Person: "Why do you eat fish and not other meat?"
Me: "Because fish don't have souls."
P: ?!?!
M: Yeah, the Catholic Church says so, so it's ok to eat them. That's what Lent's all about, you know.
...you'd be shocked how many people think I'm being serious. I've become great at removing the sarcasm from my voice when I say it.

Or last week when my gf and I cooked a sweet potato and kale frittata for dinner. Her mom's text reaction: "That's...interesting! But why did you choose that and not something else, like meatloaf?"

...the joys of living in the Midwest.

Your mom sounds like me because that exactly what I would have said. 😐 Also, it sounds delicious. 😐

I also use my Mormon religion to freak people out. "We do animal blood sacrifices in our temples. You didn't know that? It's protected speech under the first amendment." When I have them believing it, I then say, "Nah, just kidding. And we don't baptize babies, either." Mormons 1, Catholics 0. 131

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your mom sounds like me because that exactly what I would have said. 😐 Also, it sounds delicious. 😐

Gf's mom, not mine. Mine long ago stopped questioning all the ways in which I confuse or disappoint her.

But it WAS delicious. Melted goat cheese on top and everything. As I mentioned, there are plenty of tards who remove meat from their diet and either carb-load themselves into oblivion, or end up with nothing but junk food and cheese. Actually embracing it has opened my palette in ways I never would have imagined. And it's also not hard at all.

Vegans, on the other hand...no idea how they do it. Or why they'd want to. Half of the organically-labeled things out there are nothing but unregulated marketing ploys anyway. Being true to veganism must be exhausting.

Originally posted by jaden101
In Scotland we go by this logic. Chocolate is made from plants so is therefor a vegetable.

Cows eat grass and so are therefor are made from vegetables and so are a vegetable.

Michael Schumacher is a vegetable.

Originally posted by Digi
I'm neither. Bada forgets that the mudslinging of the of the comic forums might actually be believed in these parts.
313