Raiden vs. Ichigo Kurosaki

Originally posted by MicCheck
No they're not actually, I've owned several people and even moderators on that site.

Really, show me, although I'm going to bet that you got beaten by them and was banned for your way of debating. Are you from MvC?

Sure there are simple things you can look up but I actually made the effort to look up the rain feat being debunked and nothing was found.

Even then, the rain deflecting thing was a flashback told from third person perspective, the actual fight on top of that tower which name I forget, the rain feat didn't happen during the actual cinematic

threw the god damn thing, that's not a striking feat or a destructive feat. You're technically using your arms when you lift weights too, doesn't apply to chambering and throwing an actual punch.

Yeah you want to know what throwing resembles?

Surely not slashing motions, not at all, surely /sarcasm

Since both involve swinging your arms for something

Raiden has never shown that he can match Armstrong's punches.[?QUOTE]

Except on Excelsus when he was able to stop Armstrongs punches

[QUOTE]Actually yes, there is such thing as piercing damage or or blunt damage. Wonder Woman is a prime example of this, she can easily take a punch from a high end brick like Superman but can get pierced with swords and arrows.

Bullets and blades are overrated as shit in fiction, commonly shown to be capable of harming characters it logically shouldn't be capable of harming, eg. our best bullets would be ineffective against ****ers with city block durability

Raiden was able to kill Armstrong with Sam's sword.

Good for him, does he want a medal?

Yamato is capable of cutting an entire building in half with one swing.

And Raiden's sword can cut apart Metal Gear armor

At this point you would need to prove that Sam's sword has comparable destructive power. Because the demi gods and demons like the Savior that Dante, Virgil and Neo have fought are leagues above the mechs that Raiden and Sam have fought.

Being able to harm Armstrong, where Raiden's sword failed to nick him, for starters

Savior is featless beyond what it's size would suggest. Everything other boss in DMC is practically featless. Titles like "godz" and "demigodz" are just titles

Except for that Raiden has higher end showings...that you've neglected to name.

Casually deflecting machine gun fire and playing leapfrog with missiles in flight that spring to mind immediately

You said that Raiden was able to deflect machine gun fire, which isn't an impressive feat. It would be impressive if you were comparing Raiden to Katana or Captain America or some street levelers.[/QUOTE}

>says the word street levellers
>implying this somehow discredits Cap and Katana

[QUOTE]Raiden is faster than Snake...Snake was blitzed by Vamp, a guy who can't bullet time.

Or maybe Vamp is actually fast (he did keep up with Raiden, who bullet timed in his MGS 2 self, before he became a cyborg, after all). Perhaps that idea eluded you too? Is powerscaling still alien to you?

He dodged a rail gun that seemed sub sonic from the look of things.

Is that seriously your argument? "lul it looked slow so it is slow"

Long distance feats determine speed feats of a character or attack. Short distance timing is irrelevant. Eg. It easier to portray a laser going from earth to the moon in seconds than it is to show it crossing a football field

Gray Fox contrary to popular belief had no impressive speed feats. People like to use the Twin Snakes but it's non canon and has been confirmed non canon by Sean Eyestone.

Show me where it was declared non canon or shut the hell up

Originally posted by StealthRanger

1. Really, show me, although I'm going to bet that you got beaten by them and was banned for your way of debating. Are you from MvC?

2. Even then, the rain deflecting thing was a flashback told from third person perspective, the actual fight on top of that tower which name I forget, the rain feat didn't happen during the actual cinematic

3. Yeah you want to know what throwing resembles?
Surely not slashing motions, not at all, surely /sarcasm
Since both involve swinging your arms for something

4. Good for him, does he want a medal?

5. And Raiden's sword can cut apart Metal Gear armor

Being able to harm Armstrong, where Raiden's sword failed to nick him, for starters

6. Savior is featless beyond what it's size would suggest. Everything other boss in DMC is practically featless. Titles like "godz" and "demigodz" are just titles

7.
Casually deflecting machine gun fire and playing leapfrog with missiles in flight that spring to mind immediately

8. Or maybe Vamp is actually fast (he did keep up with Raiden, who bullet timed in his MGS 2 self, before he became a cyborg, after all). Perhaps that idea eluded you too? Is powerscaling still alien to you?

9.
Is that seriously your argument? "lul it looked slow so it is slow"

Long distance feats determine speed feats of a character or attack. Short distance timing is irrelevant. Eg. It easier to portray a laser going from earth to the moon in seconds than it is to show it crossing a football field

10. Show me where it was declared non canon or shut the hell up

2. Pretty sure they were different events but I'll have to recheck

3. Once again, weight lifting, throwing etc all involve moving your arms, none of them equate to hitting hard.

For the record I'm sure Raiden can hit fairly hard but you're stating he can hit as hard as Armstrong with no evidence.

4. lul wut? good for who?

5. Metal Gear Ray's are weak. Raiden was able to destroy them with standard missiles and Solidus was able to damage one with a P90 sub machine gun

Not something to brag about.

6. lol Excelsus was featless too, hell most of the Metal Gears were featless and you were just bragging about how Raiden was able to destroy them...at least Savior and most bosses in DMC don't get pwned by portable missiles and sub machine guns like Rays do.

Nice double standard.

7. Not going to keep beating the dead horse but you're using a feat that street levelers can pull off.

Just so you know most street levelers, Wolverine, Batman, Katana, Captain America, would get mauled by Dante, Virgil, Ichigo and even Revengance Raiden got that matter.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=334

Surface to air missiles, which Raiden was hopping on, need to accelerate before reaching their max speed, and most of them are mach 2-5. It's a cool feat but someone like Spiderman could of probably replicated it.

8. No Vamp isn't that fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT1DKC_OjME

Watch at 0:37

It's already been proven in MGS2 That Vamp is unable to bullet time. Vamp is able to hear muscle movements and predict where a gun is pointed before it fires.

When he fought Raiden, Raiden was wearing a skull suit that made it hard to read his muscle movements. Vamp ended up getting partially shot in the face.

It has nothing to do with power scaling, Vamp flat out showed his inability to bullet time and below peak human reaction time.

9. Try again, watch this at exactly 9:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTEndXSr6iY

Snake dodges the first shot, the first shot actually used cinematic timing and fast forwarded the camera. The second shot comes while he's rolling around on the ground and some of the shrapnel hits his Solid Eye before the shot even lands.

No camera tricks, no cinematic timing, all real time, it's a sub sonic projectile.

10. http://www.examiner.com/article/kojipro-explains-twin-snakes-exclusion-from-metal-gear-solid-hd-collection

Unlike you, I actually provide evidence when I make a claim, a trait you should really learn.

Originally posted by MicCheck
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/KatanablocksBullets.jpg

Now you can stop about machine gun fire, it's getting sad at this point

Did you really just use a fictional depiction of a "peak human" to prove Raiden isn't fast?

Lol, are you serious?

Kenji Saito, the director for the game states that it's a gameplay mechanic

http://www.primagames.com/games/metal-gear-rising-revengeance/strategy/director-kenji-saito-talks-metal-gear-rising-reven

Where was blade mode when George had a gun to his head? Where was blade mode in any cut scene in the game, against Sam, or Sundowner, or Armstrong?

Oh yeah, it doesn't exist outside of a gameplay mechanic. Tough sh*t

That's funny, considering how Kenji Saito said that it's a gameplay mechanic, but they wanted to integrate it into Raiden's character and story as well. In the very link you posted. You've owned yourself.

Anyway Ichigo wins.

He said he wanted to incorporate Zandatsu, not Blade Mode.

Which needs Blade Mode, yes.

Anyway, blocking automatic machine gun fire is not an IRL peak human feat.

I could point you to peak humans who can do things like displace 450,000 tons of snow with a single punch or dodge lightspeed assaults and redirect their opponent's momentum to toss them out of the solar system.

Alright...fair point on the blade mode...

Karate Kid would beat Raiden and Ichigo's asses at the same time, is the point I was getting at.

Originally posted by MicCheck
[B]1. No, MvC is more of a joke forum, still preferable to OBD

What board do you go to then?

2. Pretty sure they were different events but I'll have to recheck

No, not really

3. Once again, weight lifting, throwing etc all involve moving your arms, none of them equate to hitting hard.

Except for the fact that by moving your arms you're achieving a similar effect

For the record I'm sure Raiden can hit fairly hard but you're stating he can hit as hard as Armstrong with no evidence.

Other than stopping his attacks, oh gee, I don't know, I really don't know /derp

4. lul wut? good for who?

Raiden, duh. Are you illiterate?

6. lol Excelsus was featless too, hell most of the Metal Gears were featless and you were just bragging about how Raiden was able to destroy them...at least Savior and most bosses in DMC don't get pwned by portable missiles and sub machine guns like Rays do.

Still doesn't change that DMC bosses are featless and Savior is no more physically powerful than what it's size would suggest

As for excelsus it created a multi-block crater with hit's attacks http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19593#comment174246

Which is a tad above the Savior

7. Not going to keep beating the dead horse but you're using a feat that street levelers can pull off.

Just so you know most street levelers, Wolverine, Batman, Katana, Captain America, would get mauled by Dante, Virgil, Ichigo and even Revengance Raiden got that matter.

You still throw that around as if it discredits them

Cite where I said otherwise or STFU

Also, Wolverine would beat Dante or Vergil (in attrition anyways) and Wolverine's low meta

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=334

Surface to air missiles, which Raiden was hopping on, need to accelerate before reaching their max speed, and most of them are mach 2-5. It's a cool feat but someone like Spiderman could of probably replicated it.

Why does the fact they need acceleration matter. Are you trying to imply they weren't going fast by the time Raiden started leapfrogging them?

8. No Vamp isn't that fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT1DKC_OjME

Watch at 0:37

It's already been proven in MGS2 That Vamp is unable to bullet time. Vamp is able to hear muscle movements and predict where a gun is pointed before it fires.

When he fought Raiden, Raiden was wearing a skull suit that made it hard to read his muscle movements. Vamp ended up getting partially shot in the face.

It has nothing to do with power scaling, Vamp flat out showed his inability to bullet time and below peak human reaction time.

Getting merely grazed on the face after dodging attacks is a commonplace thing in Japanese media for whatever reason, plus he did sort of dodge rather than just get outright shot, still a speed feat

9. Try again, watch this at exactly 9:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTEndXSr6iY

Snake dodges the first shot, the first shot actually used cinematic timing and fast forwarded the camera. The second shot comes while he's rolling around on the ground and some of the shrapnel hits his Solid Eye before the shot even lands.

No camera tricks, no cinematic timing, all real time, it's a sub sonic projectile.

Things have to be seen on screen. Short distance timing is irrelevant as long distance speed feats take precedence and flashy cinematic don't change anything

Or perhaps you want to make the claim that Agent Smith and Neo from the Matrix were only fighting at peak human speeds in their fights because there were no flashy effects despite bullet timing feats during the franchise?

Meh, regardless Ichigo flattens Raiden due to superior destructive capacity and whatnot

I'm not going to quote all of that individually so I'll address a few things

The best weight lifter, the fastest pitcher in the MLB, neither of them would be able to hit as hard as a pro boxer regardless of how fast they can move their arms. Tony Gywnn Jr wouldn't be able to reach anywhere near the PSI that Cain Velasquez can.

Excelsus never performed a multi block busting attack. Excelsus was hidden underground and when it came out it caused the entire air base to collapse.

The Savior is no more powerful than it's size would suggest, neither is Excelsus, and considering the size difference between them, and the fact that the Savior is magically enchanted and wider range energy attacks, it's obviously the bigger threat and you'd have to be mental to think other wise.

Wolverine wouldn't beat Dante or Virgil through attrition, they're regeneration is just as good if not better than his is, they're many leagues faster and stronger, have a wider array of abilites, Yamato or Rebellion could possibly cut through his skeleton and even if it couldn't they could easily knock Wolverine around senseless until they KO him.

Yes, I'm stating that given how close the missiles were to Ray, they had not yet reached max speed when Raiden hopped on them.

No, Vamp got grazed in the face because he couldn't predict Raiden's muscles. He had no problem dodging gun fire earlier against enemies who's muscles he can read.

His speed is below peak human, if he could dodge bullets solely off of reaction then he wouldn't be reliant on a gimmicky ability like being able to read muscle movements. Simple fact is he can't.

They can be seen or heard, we hear the rail gun fire, and we hear it hit the tree behind Snake seconds later without any type of camera or cinematic timing tricks.

Originally posted by MicCheck
I'm not going to quote all of that individually so I'll address a few things

The best weight lifter, the fastest pitcher in the MLB, neither of them would be able to hit as hard as a pro boxer regardless of how fast they can move their arms. Tony Gywnn Jr wouldn't be able to reach anywhere near the PSI that Cain Velasquez can.

All revolve around basic arm movements. Those are humans with no significant disparity between them

You can throw something, the amount of force you produce with attacks shouldn't be that far behind

Excelsus never performed a multi block busting attack.

Except for that crater he caused, which was calced as such

Excelsus was hidden underground and when it came out it caused the entire air base to collapse.

Why does this discredit Excelsus now?

the Savior is magically enchanted

Why does this mean anything?

and wider range energy attacks,

Destructive Capacity?

it's obviously the bigger threat and you'd have to be mental to think other wise.

Coming from a notorious MGS downplayer :roll:

Wolverine wouldn't beat Dante or Virgil through attrition, they're regeneration is just as good if not better than his is

**** off, Dante and Vergil have never shown the capacity to regenerate missing limbs or heads or anything alone those lines

they're many leagues faster and stronger,

Sure I guess, still can't kill him, and their stamina is far lower, meaning they'll tire out and die eventually

have a wider array of abilites,

None of which can kill Wolverine

Yamato or Rebellion could possibly cut through his skeleton and even if it couldn't they could easily knock Wolverine around senseless until they KO him.

Cut through his skeleton? Get the **** out of here. Adamantium has tanked attacks from ****ers like Thor, who can deal far more damage than the entire DMC-verse could in a million years

KO him? Call me when Dante and Vergil can dish out more damage than nukes, until then, no dice ******

No, Vamp got grazed in the face because he couldn't predict Raiden's muscles. He had no problem dodging gun fire earlier against enemies who's muscles he can read.

He did a good job against dodging Raiden's other rounds despite lacking this ability against him, so yea, Vamp is quite fast, even if he didn't outright dodge them

His speed is below peak human, if he could dodge bullets solely off of reaction then he wouldn't be reliant on a gimmicky ability like being able to read muscle movements. Simple fact is he can't.

Or he can do both. Maybe that idea escaped you?

Except for that time against Raiden

They can be seen or heard, we hear the rail gun fire, and we hear it hit the tree behind Snake seconds later without any type of camera or cinematic timing tricks.

Really? "we herds teh raelgun, we saw eet on teh screen! Eetz soe slow guiz!!!!11!!!!"

I mean Agents in the Matrix have several feats of bullet timing and yet when they fight we can clearly see them. Does this mean they're fighting at peak humans speeds despite lack of flashy camera effects. No it ****ing doesn't

They're still ****ing fast as hell. Why is MGS exempt from this?

Can you seriously not break down the post in like 50 sections, it's annoying as hell

Once again, take the best weight lifter or the fastest pitcher and they wouldn't be able to obtain anywhere near the same PSI as a boxer would be able to.

Such a terrible comparison you're making, this is common knowledge but obviously beyond your comprehension.

He calculated it, but that's not what happened in the game, the most damage Excelsus did was cause an air base to collapse by breaking through the surface, nothing else. I don't care about someone's calculations, I care about what's demonstrated on panel. And Excelsus never performed any block busting attacks.

There stamina is lower than Wolverine's...Yeah you're making things up at this point...Dante and Virgil have never shown a soft cap on their stamina...stop making things up

And anyway the fight won't go on for more than a minute since Wolverine won't be able to sustain too many blows to the noggin.

Anything else?

Mjolnir isn't a blunt weapon so it's a poor comparison. Yamato doesn't have the raw destructive capabilities that Mjolnir has, it would still be able to cut through objects that Mjolnir wouldn't be able to.

Better example, Mjolnir can probably hurt someone like Superman but not cause any serious injury, Yamato would do more damage to Superman, case in point Wonder Woman's sword and other Amazons such as spears which are magically enchanted have cut through him like butter.

No they don't have the destructive power of a nuke...neither did Mr X...neither did Captain America...neither did Blok...neither of dozens of other characters that have kO'd Wolverine over the years.

Anything else?

He was able to dodge Raiden's first few bullets because he was still able to partially here his muscle movements, it's even in the MGS Script, and I quote

"Vamp: Ha ha ha ha... I thought so... (He sounds almost happy) // Vamp can read a bullet’s course by watching his enemy’s muscle to judge their aim. He is 100% accurate when judging the shots fired by an ordinary opponent. However, the pressure applied by Raiden’s Skull Suit restricts muscle movement, making his moves difficult to read"

This is straight from the MGS2 Script, the fact is Vamp has to rely on this ability because he can't dodge bullets with his own speed.

No skull suit = no problem

Can't read muscles = Vamp gets lit up since he lacks bullet timing reflexes

Anything else?

Most of the crap in the Matrix films were in a simulation anyway. And when Agents dodge bullets the camera is slowing them down.

They are using camera tricks and cinematic timing, none of which are being used with the second rail gun shot, it's all in REAL TIME.

Compelled to post cos Devils.

DMC3 Dante is faster, Raiden is far, far stronger. In the air how the fight would go, and not really for the thread.

Anyhow Mic, I don't recall getting a response from you (before the ban) where you countered the railgun. Seeing as we have the stated joules and can easily assuming the projectiles weight, it's a simple calc to get the speed of what.. whoever dodged.

Originally posted by MicCheck
Can you seriously not break down the post in like 50 sections, it's annoying as hell

No, because I like to maintain a coherent point by point structure

Suck it up if you don't like it

Once again, take the best weight lifter or the fastest pitcher and they wouldn't be able to obtain anywhere near the same PSI as a boxer would be able to.

I never said it was exact, only that Raiden's destructive capacity would still be ridiculously high from throwing Excelsus

Such a terrible comparison you're making, this is common knowledge but obviously beyond your comprehension.

No, throwing is generally scaled to attack force on various boards, this one included, don't like it? Go cry SpaceBattles or CBR

He calculated it, but that's not what happened in the game, the most damage Excelsus did was cause an air base to collapse by breaking through the surface, nothing else.

And this discredits Excelsus how? You realise that CT's calc was based off that, right?

I don't care about someone's calculations, I care about what's demonstrated on panel. And Excelsus never performed any block busting attacks.

>I don't like it so I'll just ignore it

There stamina is lower than Wolverine's...Yeah you're making things up at this point...Dante and Virgil have never shown a soft cap on their stamina...stop making things up

S'pose tiring against Vergil and Mundus don't count? Hm

And anyway the fight won't go on for more than a minute since Wolverine won't be able to sustain too many blows to the noggin.

IKR, it's not like Wolverine was reduced to a skeleton by a nuke and regened instantly, oh wait a mo, yea he did

Mjolnir isn't a blunt weapon so it's a poor comparison. Yamato doesn't have the raw destructive capabilities that Mjolnir has, it would still be able to cut through objects that Mjolnir wouldn't be able to.

Are you trying to imply a sword that can only cut skyscrapers is capable of generating more pressure than a planet busting attack?

Are you like, defective? Or trolling?

Better example, Mjolnir can probably hurt someone like Superman but not cause any serious injury, Yamato would do more damage to Superman, case in point Wonder Woman's sword and other Amazons such as spears which are magically enchanted have cut through him like butter.

1. We've been over this sonny boy, bullets and blades are overrated by authors and portrayed as more powerful than they are and are ignored as low ends (same reason we disregard Whitebeard being killed by musket rounds in favor of tanking attacks from Admiral level opponents among other such shit), again, our best handheld guns would be ineffective against ****ers with city block level durability
2. Just because Wonder Woman is subject to this, doesn't mean every other character is

No they don't have the destructive power of a nuke

Then why are we still here :maybe

...neither did Mr X

Who?

...neither did Captain America...

Because Captain America doesn't have a major jobber aura or anyth.... oh, but it's not like he's fought Thor or something due to his jobber aur.... oh, oops, or as such dodged lightn..... doh!

neither did Blok...neither of dozens of other characters that have kO'd Wolverine over the years.

Yeah, we don't use low ends

Most debating site, this one included use positive feedback, it's where we take the higher end feats of a character and assume it to be an accurate portrayal of their abilities

If we don't, it just devolves into endless streams of nitpicking. Want to nitpick and establish a true statistical mean? Want to know what we get? City block level skyfathers, small building level DBZ characters, etc

Reason why verses like Marvel, DC, DBZ, YYH, Warhammer 40,000, Star Wars, etc are considered as powerful as they are

Most of the crap in the Matrix films were in a simulation anyway. And when Agents dodge bullets the camera is slowing them down.

They are using camera tricks and cinematic timing, none of which are being used with the second rail gun shot, it's all in REAL TIME. [/B]

Nice attempted handwave to try to 'justify' a double standard

So lack of flashy camera effects is 100% legit in the Matrix, but not MGS eh?

How do you justify this? :maybe

Or, again, will you try to claim Agent Smith and Neo only fight at peak human speeds when they fight because no flashy camera effects

Jesus, this is almost up there with "Star Wars blaster bolts look slow because we can see them on screen" 'logic'

I gave up on that argument when you kept insisting that Raiden was as fast as Solidus based on power scaling even though a guy who can't bullet time blitzed the living bejeezus out of both him and Snake at the same time.

Or ignored the fact that one of rail guns didn't have a specified power output

Or how you kept assuming what type of ammo was being used without any hard evidence.

Hopefully you can see how it became muddled after that.

Speed isn't necessarily everything in a fight, chuckles

Common debating assumptions, unless stated differently from their real life counter parts, we can and will assume it fires similar ammo with similar output to an IRL railgun (we have no reason to believe it doesn't, so why should we)

Kinda stops stupid shit from popping up from degenerates such as yourself

There is no such thing as a IRL Portable rail gun, there's nothing to compare it to, nice job owning yourself 1 sentence

I meant real railgun, dumbass

God job on the strawman, however

You said compare it to a real life counter part, there is no real life counter part. I haven't strawmanned anything, that's exactly what you said.

And the portable rail guns in MGS aren't going to have anywhere near the power output of the larger Navy Esque rail guns so you fail again.

Based on?

Oh I didn't even notice the new wall of crap that you posted, lets see what do we have here

Wolverine being reduced to a skeleton...sure...lets take that instance and ignore the more regular instances of him getting his ass kicked by street levelers...BRILLIANT

Bullets and blades are overrated by authors...well unfortunately you're the only one who feels this way...I don't even have to use Wonder Woman either, standard Amazon swords and spears have injured Superman worse than getting hit by magically enchanted blunt force attacks..Captain Marvel and Black Adam are two characters that come to mind..

A SW Blaster Bolt is actually slow, it's not made out of light, it's made out of plasma..Halo is another example, a lot of Covenant fire arms are slower than ballistics are.

That's all