Whats the cutoff point between Meta and Herald?

Before I get started, I gotta thank zopzop for his excellent thoughts that have lead to the creation of this thread...well done good sir! 🙂

Ok, now to get started...

Ask yourself, whats seperates (or rather what SHOULD seperate) Heralds from High Meta's?

Just think about that for a moment...

Is it combat feats? Is it versatility? Is it raw displays of incredible power? What is it?

In zopzop'z mind (and I wholeheartedly endorse his thoughts on this) it should be raw displays of power that seperate the two...

When I think Herald, I think of characters with atleast Class 100 Strength and matching durability...

I think of characters with the ability to lift an island into orbit, manipulate matter and energy on a large scale, travel at speeds greater than light speed, or perform telepathy on a massive scale (theses are just examples; there are other powers/abilities/feat types that I'd consider Heraldish as well)...

In my minds eye, a true Herald level character need not be capable of all of the above abilities, but definitely should be capable of atleast some of them (or the equivalent)...

As the tiers are currently formed, it seems to me that combat feats and versatility have lead some characters to undeservingly be placed among the Heralds...

Some characters "matchup" better against others, so one character can possess significantly less raw power than another and still get a win...despite an inferior overall level of power.

I believe that needs to change; Dr Doom, Ironman, Dracula (and there are others) are all characters that are typically considered to be Herald level here, but all of them have something else in common; they all lack the extreme displays of power that I believe a true Herald level character should possess...

Yes, they all have some pretty good combat feats; all of them have the capability to defeat Heralds if they get the right matchup...

They are all versatile and can attack/defend themselves in various ways...

But they simply lack the raw power that "Low" (and I mean "Low" are pertains how they compare to other Heralds as these characters are actually quite powerful) Heralds like Air Walker, Charles Xavier, or even Frankie Raye have demostrated...

To summarize, I think we need to redraw the lines of what constitues a Herald and what consitutes a Meta (High Meta to be exact)...

Now, for your thoughts and thanks for taking the time to read this; I know its a bit lengthy...

🙂

People we would have to throw out of the Herald, trans, and Skyfather tier.

Black Adam
Orion
Juggernaut
Sinestro
Zeus
Kurse
99% of DCNU characters
Bizzaro
Metallo
King Hyperion
Bruttal
Tyrant
Serpent
Loeb Red Hulk
All forms of Solomon Grundy
The General
Titus
Black Bolt
V&V Despero
DOS Doomsday

I can go one for days. This type of debating is false in so many ways.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Before I get started, I gotta thank zopzop for his excellent thoughts that have lead to the creation of this thread...well done good sir! 🙂

Ok, now to get started...

Ask yourself, whats seperates (or rather what SHOULD seperate) Heralds from High Meta's?

Just think about that for a moment...

Is it combat feats? Is it versatility? Is it raw displays of incredible power? What is it?

In zopzop'z mind (and I wholeheartedly endorse his thoughts on this) it should be raw displays of power that seperate the two...

When I think [b]Herald, I think of characters with atleast Class 100 Strength and matching durability...

I think of characters with the ability to lift an island into orbit, manipulate matter and energy on a large scale, travel at speeds greater than light speed, or perform telepathy on a massive scale (theses are just examples; there are other powers/abilities/feat types that I'd consider Heraldish as well)...

In my minds eye, a true Herald level character need not be capable of all of the above abilities, but definitely should be capable of atleast some of them (or the equivalent)...

As the tiers are currently formed, it seems to me that combat feats and versatility have lead some characters to undeservingly be placed among the Heralds...

Some characters "matchup" better against others, so one character can possess significantly less raw power than another and still get a win...despite an inferior overall level of power.

I believe that needs to change; Dr Doom, Ironman, Dracula (and there are others) are all characters that are typically considered to be Herald level here, but all of them have something else in common; they all lack the extreme displays of power that I believe a true Herald level character should possess...

Yes, they all have some pretty good combat feats; all of them have the capability to defeat Heralds if they get the right matchup...

They are all versatile and can attack/defend themselves in various ways...

But they simply lack the raw power that "Low" (and I mean "Low" are pertains how they compare to other Heralds as these characters are actually quite powerful) Heralds like Air Walker, Charles Xavier, or even Frankie Raye have demostrated...

To summarize, I think we need to redraw the lines of what constitues a Herald and what consitutes a Meta (High Meta to be exact)...

Now, for your thoughts and thanks for taking the time to read this; I know its a bit lengthy...

🙂 [/B]

Also, keep in mind that certain characters have the raw power of heralds, like Hulk, but lack a true herald's versatility.

For example : Hulk has herald level strength/stamina/durability but that's it.

Luke Cage is the gatekeeper for Marvel in terms of the cutoff.

always thought Iron Man was the cut off

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Luke Cage is the gatekeeper for Marvel in terms of the cutoff.

Luke Cage is low meta. he cant cause any real damage as far as real power output.
whats the best level of damage he can demonstrate? destroy a house? a low meta to me.

as far as the topic goes. many characters got good fighting showings based on either PIS or the right set up. however i do believe one level should be established by overal power output and damage potential.
someone like juggernaut for example (classic one) should be mid meta. why? he can take some damage thats his special thing, however whats the overall power output he has? he can destroy a house, a building... it took him like months to punch his way out of a mountain, and people call him herald? he can cause an earthquake on the richter level of 8 when hitting with both his arms full power as was shown in a comics. i think that should put him as mid meta leveler. high meta should be able to cause much more damage via power output like say destroy a whole block. a herald should be able to at least wipe out a whole city. high herald should be able to destroy a planet. trans levelers should be able to destroy stars and hit the galaxy power level.

i believe having exotic powers is cool, but you cant call someone a herald just because he got many cool looking powers like shooting beatiful colored beams and what ever. the overall power output of a character is what matters. when the character unleash all his power doesnt matter physical, energy , matter manipulation. what happens when everything the character has is unleashed. thats IMO is the scale.

Pym/Stark

That's the line imo.

as for a character that is the limit between them, i believe it would be probably guys like savage hulk, hercules and maybe namor when he is full power. those are all low heralds that just passed the meta level of power.

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
as for a character that is the limit between them, i believe it would be probably guys like savage hulk, hercules and maybe namor when he is full power. those are all low heralds that just passed the meta level of power.

😐

Originally posted by carver9
😐

if you object something mention it and show why, otherwise dont be an ass and post faces when someone is typing his reasons and opinions.

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
if you object something mention it and show why, otherwise dont be an ass and post faces when someone is typing his reasons and opinions.

I'm tired of correcting people of the same cr**, I mean,stuff. Hulk is clearly high Herald, hell, sometime he operates above those levels, and you deemed him as a low Herald. If you're doing that, you might as well include HP Doomsday as well since you are basing your argument off versatility. If that's the case, people like Hyperion, Superman, and Gladiator should be low to mid Heralds since they don't have as close to the versaitkity as people like Surfer, Thor, and Genis. Also, where would you rank people like Black Adam and Captain Marvel? Remember, versatility is the key.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm tired of correcting people of the same cr**, I mean,stuff. Hulk is clearly high Herald, hell, sometime he operates above those levels, and you deemed him as a low Herald. If you're doing that, you might as well include HP Doomsday as well since you are basing your argument off versatility. If that's the case, people like Hyperion, Superman, and Gladiator should be low to mid Heralds since they don't have as close to the versaitkity as people like Surfer, Thor, and Genis. Also, where would you rank people like Black Adam and Captain Marvel? Remember, versatility is the key.

funny enough how you ***** about people dissing hulk only a few posts after you diss "99% of the dcnu".

Yes, I said funny.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm tired of correcting people of the same cr**, I mean,stuff. Hulk is clearly high Herald, hell, sometime he operates above those levels, and you deemed him as a low Herald. If you're doing that, you might as well include HP Doomsday as well since you are basing your argument off versatility. If that's the case, people like Hyperion, Superman, and Gladiator should be low to mid Heralds since they don't have as close to the versaitkity as people like Surfer, Thor, and Genis. Also, where would you rank people like Black Adam and Captain Marvel? Remember, versatility is the key.

when hulk goes nutts whats the best thing he can do with his punches? i am talking about savage hulk. WWH and WBH are on a different level IMO. HP Doomsday is on another level. he demonstrated physical abilities that clearly put him as someone who can destroy a planet. aside of that destroying teams of heralds is something only a trans can do. you dont see hulk destroying causally teams of heralds do you? again average savage hulk.

i never said i am basing my argument on versatility, if your anus hurts from the "versatility" argument everybody are putting on hulk dont blame it on me. i dont care about versatility, i care only about the overall power output of a character. thats why i believe WBH is Trans leveler and easily. Gladitor destroyed a planet with his hands thats a high herald level showing.

again i never said versatility, this proved me only one thing, you did not even bother to read my initial post and skipped only to the one where i named several names. the joke is on you, next time get rid of the ADHD and read everything a person says before you respond.

Savage Hulk destroyed an asteroid larger than the Earth, and made a legacy out of beating up the avengers.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Savage Hulk destroyed an asteroid larger than the Earth, and made a legacy out of beating up the avengers.

beating up avangers =\= beating up team of heralds.

it was grey hulk and it was hyperbole. he was sling shoted to space to meet the astroid. i hate those 1 time dumb showins from the 70s 80s because people are choosing when do draw them even thought they know themselves its just BS. overall savage hulk can destroy an area i believe city size, i dont believe he can destroy a planet unless he gets angrier and more powerful. i believe his WWH levels can meet up with the Mid heralds requirements. WBH Version Trans Level.

He has always been depicted as stronger than Thor, who has demonstrated planetary power.

Lulz at the avengers not being a team of heralds.

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
beating up avangers =\= beating up team of heralds.

it was grey hulk and it was hyperbole. he was sling shoted to space to meet the astroid. i hate those 1 time dumb showins from the 70s 80s because people are choosing when do draw them even thought they know themselves its just BS. overall savage hulk can destroy an area i believe city size, i dont believe he can destroy a planet unless he gets angrier and more powerful. i believe his WWH levels can meet up with the high heralds requirements.

The sling shot didn't do anything but send him into space and Hulk on many of occasions fought against the Avengers, hell, Hulk recently took on Thor, Ironman, and Cap by himself while trying to talk some sense into them. Before this, he took on the entire click and held his own, and yes, I'm talking about Savage.

Is destroying a planet the key? If so, you better exclude a LOT of people on your list of Heralds. Hell, Savage Hulk has fts better than destroying a planet, even though his weaker self destroyed something twice the size of Earth. Also, lets not forget about him powering through a planetary blast on multiples of occasions.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
He has always been depicted as stronger than Thor, who has demonstrated planetary power.

Lulz at the avengers not being a team of heralds.

Avengers isn't a team of heralds, that's JLA/Defenders' role.

Originally posted by carver9
The sling shot didn't do anything but send him into space and Hulk on many of occasions fought against the Avengers, hell, Hulk recently took on Thor, Ironman, and Cap by himself while trying to talk some sense into them. Before this, he took on the entire click and held his own, and yes, I'm talking about Savage.

Is destroying a planet the key? If so, you better exclude a LOT of people on your list of Heralds. Hell, Savage Hulk has fts better than destroying a planet, even though his weaker self destroyed something twice the size of Earth. Also, lets not forget about him powering through a planetary blast on multiples of occasions.

slingshot gave velocity and speed . he was basically an object hitting the astroid rather than his own power output. however as i stated thats a BS 70s 80s 1 time showing like many characters has. as i stated before taking down the avengers does not mean beating up a team that consist of good rounded heralds. he only took thor a high herald and iron man a high meta. cap? Lol.

the overall power output to destroy a whole planet is a key to establish one as fitting the herald category in my book yes. you bring hulk taking blasts that can destroy a planet? first of all as i stated i talk about power output not damage soak. classic juggernaut can take huge levels of punishment, doesnt mean i should put him as high herald when it takes him several month to punch his way out of a mountain. hulk can whitstand things via healing factor. wolverine can take blasts that can destroy a city. so wolverine is low herald now? aside of that can you prove that the blasts that were shot at hulk were at the level of destroying a planet? because if its something like lets say thor hitting him with a blast, can you prove everything he had was put into the blast and the blast wasnt just there to give hulk a fight but no cause any real damage?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thor has rarely shown planetary level strength. Its not his average strength. Hell, its not an average strength level for any character.

Could Iron Man?

Avengers isn't a team of heralds, that's JLA/Defenders' role.